Optimum vs PDR reserve for a sub-par newbie

[Apollo87 0]

So, here's my deal. I'm @ 23 jumps, just got my Mirage G4 M4(170 container) and bought a 190 pulse. That was when I had lost 10lbs and weighed ~183 lbs. I stopped working out, got lazy and gained f'kin 30lbs in a few weeks (WTF?!). That puts me @ ~212 (236otd) right now and I'm flying a 210 Spectre. I stand up/run out ~ 75% of my landings and the rest are pretty soft plfs (knock on wood). On a strict diet & exercise routine, hoping to get back to at least 195 by the time I've got my gear together (2 months?). I jump ~5 times/wknd. My canopy skills are improving, but definitely not the best. My T&SA/DZO/Head Honcho (idk terms) used to be a test pilot for PD (has over 8k jumps). I told him I was getting a 176 optimum to put in there and he highly recommended against it. He said a 160 PDR would be safer for me??? That scares me, but I don't really know shit. He assured me it'd be safer and I shouldn't have a problem landing it. He knows my exit weight (235). He's seen me go through the school and knows me fairly well. (Keep in mind I won't be jumping this rig until I've got an AAD and Reserve, which will put me @ 40-60 jumps). In ya'll's experience, which one is easier to put down? Oh, and which do you think would pack smaller?

P.S. Plz don't tell me to demo them. I don't have the funds. I need every $ I can get. I make $10/hr and only work 30hrs/week... ALL my extra money goes to skydiving.

[DcloudZ 0]

I've always put importance on having a reserve that wouldn't kill/severely injure me in the event that I can't control/flare it (Unconscious/paralyzed).

Let's be honest, in the best conditions you could easily and safely land either of those reserves; you need to be thinking about the worst case situations.

Note: I don't have any experience under either or any reserve parachute. *(Pro packer/God-like body position on opening)*

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[Remster 30]

He recommended the PDR160 over the OPT176?

Remster

[Apollo87 0]

Thanks. I edited the post to shorten it & add in the packing size? ;) Which do you think would pack smaller?


@Remster Yes...

[DcloudZ 0]

Apollo87

Thanks. I edited the post to shorten it & add in the packing size? ;) Which do you think would pack smaller?


@Remster Yes...

They will be very similar in pack volume; but generally riggers prefer packing OPs.

I believe the approx. numbers would be:

PDR 160 - 364 cubic in.

OP 176 - 355 cubic in.

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

[GooniesKid 0]

Apollo87

So, here's my deal. I'm @ 23 jumps, just got my Mirage G4 M4(170 container) and bought a 190 pulse.


Plz don't tell me to demo them. I don't have the funds. I need every $ I can get..

LOL!

Says "I dont' have funds" yet says "just got Mirage G4 and 190 main"

LOL!!!!

[Apollo87 0]

LOL!

Wonder why I don't have funds??

LOL!!

And, since you're post was completely irrelevant, my grandmother paid for the other half of it for my birthday, prick.

[Quagmirian 40]

Try not to let him get the better of you. He has trolled in and derailed many threads.

[Remster 30]

Quote

@Remster Yes...

Does not compute. Ask him why he recommends the 160. Financial considerations asides, it makes no sense.

Remster

[Apollo87 0]

Thanks. I didn't want to be the @$$H0!E there. I didn't compute either. I still think I might go against his recommendations, but that's hard when the most experienced, knowledgeable, post PD tester says otherwise. My reasoning? The internet... His reasoning was if I were unconscious, the canopy would have less response to saddle inputs and it's more docile. He says the Optimum flies more like a Main and he wants the reserve to fly like a reserve. I'm already going against the recommendations of a Cypres and getting a MARS M2. I really don't know, but I just don't think I'd feel safe under a 160 PDR. If I didn't lose any weight, I'd be at a friggin 1.47 wing loading and I personally don't think/pretty much know I couldn't handle that confidently and PD says the flare on the Optimum is far superior. I get scared of the decent rate of the 210 spectre @ a 1.2wl. A 2.1 glide ratio on a 160 @ almost 1.5 f-111 would make me shit my pants. Plus, the extra cash it'll take to save up for the Optimum will allow me to get some more jumps in. I just hate to ask for advice and go against it anyways, ya know

@ Dcloudz, thanks man. That even helps me lean more towards the Optimum since the 190 pulse is THE largest canopy I can cram in the M4, I'd prefer all the space I can get. I've only jumped 2 of my pack jobs, both old triathlons, and I decided to pay packers from that point on because of the 4" black opening reminders. Even with the senior riggers pack job, that shit slammed me, so I don't have much practice packing...

I appreciate the input. Keep it coming, please!

[JeffCa 0]

I don't have any experience under reserves, so take my advice with that in consideration. Anyway, I just bought my first reserve and went with an Optimum that puts me well under 1.0 WL, around 0.83. I took advantage of the smaller pack volume to increase the size that I could put in my container. If I'm unconscious like our friend Brian was recently, I want my best chance, and I think the huge reserve gives that to me. Check Brian's thread here:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4503898;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Anyway, if somebody was suggesting putting me under a reserve at the WL you'll be at on a 160, especially at your/my experience level, I'd be inclined to completely ignore their advice.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[GooniesKid 0]

Quagmirian

Try not to let him get the better of you. He has trolled in and derailed many threads.

Come on bro,,when have i ever derailed many threads?

are you serious? or are you trolling me?

[skybytch 273]

Quote

but generally riggers prefer packing OPs.

Really? Where did you get that information?

[Apollo87 0]

JeffCa

Check Brian's thread here:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4503898;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Anyway, if somebody was suggesting putting me under a reserve at the WL you'll be at on a 160, especially at your/my experience level, I'd be inclined to completely ignore their advice.

AWESOME INFO! Thanks, man! I'm glad to hear someone agrees with me and that article really helps reassure me of my original instincts to go with the 176. Much appreciated.

{skybytch} - Why do you ask? Do you disagree?

@ Goonies - Why are you still here? Go troll somewhere else. Stop wasting my time and get back under your bridge. Idk what/who made you such a hateful, worthless POS, but don't take it out on my thread where I'm actually trying to learn something. I know that might be hard to comprehend, but you should try it sometime... It involves less typing and more reading.

[billvon 2,991]

At 23 jumps I would not want to go any more than about 1:1 on reserve loading. If you can get down to 195 you'd be at an exit weight of about 220, which puts you at 1.25 to 1 even on an Optimum 176. If you don't lose weight you'd be at 1.35 to 1.

Do you think you could land a 176 under all conditions after a low cutaway right now? Compare it to, say, a 170 Pulse. Would that be a canopy you would be comfortable landing out under bad conditions? If not the 176 is too small for you.

If that's the case then I would find a rig to rent for 50 jumps or so while you get comfortable jumping the Pulse 190, then try a Pulse 170. Once you're comfortable under the Pulse 170 then you'd likely be ready for the Optimum 176.

No, a PD160R would not be safer. It is, in my opinion, nuts to get a reserve that is smaller than anything you have ever jumped with the plan that if you ever need it you will "learn fast."

For purposes of comparison, one of my rigs has a Crossfire 2 109 and a PD143; I'm about 205 out the door at about 6000 jumps. I'm planning on going to an Optimum 160 when I can afford it. I have never been under a reserve and thought "geez, I wish that thing were smaller."

[grue 1]

Apollo87

That puts me @ ~212 (236otd) right now and I'm flying a 210 Spectre. I stand up/run out ~ 75% of my landings and the rest are pretty soft plfs (knock on wood). On a strict diet & exercise routine, hoping to get back to at least 195 by the time I've got my gear together (2 months?).

Disclaimer: I'm not an instructor, but I'll try not to be an asshole either for once :)


I'll try to relate to this as best as I can… my exit weight right now is a bit higher than yours (215lbs without gear, and my rig is set up with a 190 main and a 220 reserve). However, I've lost about 50lbs since October, and I was loading that 190 at around a 1.5 at my heaviest.

I've had exactly two landings in the last 8 years that I didn't stand up, one of which was a brake line that broke during my flare (not much you can do there…), and the more recent which was a downwinder out of a balloon in a roughly-plowed field in December. I bled off some speed and stumbled a bit and fell to my knees at the end, so it was damned near a standup anyway.

Now even with all that, I would be perhaps not "shit scared" to jump a 160 but I would want the conditions stacked in my favor. I would DEFINITELY not want to be in the saddle at 1,200' over a neighbourhood for my first experience with it, especially if it was my first cutaway and I was amped up over it. Hell, when I got the 190 I went to the DZ twice before I got conditions where I was willing to put the first jump on it, and I consider myself a damned confident jumper.

So if someone asked me at my current experience level if I'd take a 160 reserve, the answer would be an absolute, categorical "no". You've already had something go wrong if you're under it, why increase the odds of another thing going wrong if you can avoid it? Frankly, I wouldn't be comfortable with a 176, even, because when you're under a reserve you want things stacked in your favour as much as possible.

Bill's suggestion above to pack your new canopy into a rental container is a pretty damned good idea. Yes, it'll cost some extra, but you know what costs even more? Breaking yourself.

cavete terrae.

[JeffCa 0]

I don't have much more experience than you, but I've looked at all of the resources available to me for canopy selection, and can offer this to think about.

To add to what Billvon wrote, your canopy choices are not wise so far. With your Pulse 190, you are already in gross violation of both the Germain chart (recommends a 230 for you until you are approaching 200 jumps) and the manufacturer's recommendation (recommends 190 for you only if you are "expert", although the PD charts are ridiculously conservative sometimes). You're talking about an even smaller reserve, which would put you much more in violation. Is the issue that these canopies are the largest that will fit in your container? If yes, sell it and get a more appropriately-sized container! I'm more than 50 pounds lighter than you, and I'm jumping the same size main and bought a much larger reserve, with more experience than you say you'll have, even in a longest-wait scenario, when you begin jumping your new rig.

You confess that the 210's descent rate somewhat frightens you. I already know what people will say on here if anything happens to you, and it goes something like the following:

"He shouldn't have been on that canopy to begin with!"

"WTF was he thinking and who advised him this was a good idea?"

"He was already too heavily-loaded on his main and he goes and gets an even SMALLER reserve?"

"Just another newbie with mad skillz who thought it couldn't happen to him."

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

I have to wonder if your "S&TA,DZO,Head Honcho" has an economic stake in you buying these canopies which are too small for you. Are they "right" for you because selling them is "right" for HIM?

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

My T&SA/DZO/Head Honcho (idk terms) used to be a test pilot for PD (has over 8k jumps).

I find that hard to believe based on his recommendations....Mind throwing out a name?

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Apollo87 0]

Ok, let me backtrack a little bit. Before everyone starts ripping into my S&TA, this is far more about me. The question I first asked him was "What would you prefer if I had to pick between a PDR160 and an optimum 176?"(because I do) I mentioned that I'd be jumping a Pulse 190, but not for at least a few more months or until I was comfortable on it AND I was planning on losing some weight. I mentioned the 176 scared me and he said the PDR would fly straighter in line twists, open faster, and fly more conservatively/safer. He may very well have misunderstood me or overlooked some things, so let's not make this about him; he's always given sound advice and I respect him. I'm just trying to get some other opinions and I reeeeaaalllly like what I'm hearing. I've pretty much got my answer here.

I was actually considering Bill's suggestion before that was mentioned, so thanks! I'll definitely consider that.

The descent rate on the Spectre frightens me a bit, but 95% of the time, I stand them up because it has great flare power. The reason I bought the Pulse is because I hear it has a far better glide ratio and I'll be better able to judge the timing on my flare. They don't have a 9 cell 210 and I stand up the Safire 230 every time.

GLIDEANGLE

I have to wonder if your "S&TA,DZO,Head Honcho" has an economic stake in you buying these canopies which are too small for you. Are they "right" for you because selling them is "right" for HIM?

He wouldn't gain anything from me buying the PD.

Lastly, I think I might have gotten a bit carried away with the timing/jump numbers. I'm thinking with the cost of an AAD and now an optimum reserve, I'll be looking @ more like 4-6 months and hopefully closer to 150 jumps. Maybe back to 185lbs? fingers crossed

I got wayy more replies than I expected from some incredibly wise folks. Thank you very much! I'll take my sweeet assss time getting into that rig (with an optimum) ;)

Blue Skies!

[evan85 0]

GLIDEANGLE

I have to wonder if your "S&TA,DZO,Head Honcho" has an economic stake in you buying these canopies which are too small for you. Are they "right" for you because selling them is "right" for HIM?

This doesn't make sense. OP is choosing between two PD reserve canopies, and this S&TA gentleman suggested that he buy the cheaper one. Even assuming that this guy gets a cut of the sales of any PD canopy (which OP says is not true) -- he advocated for the canopy that would net him less money.

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

"What would you prefer if I had to pick between a PDR160 and an optimum 176?"(because I do)

No you don't.

Medical bills can cost a lot more than gear.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Apollo87 0]

I appreciate the concern, but I just spent every penny I've earned over the last 5 months on a new container and pulse with <120 jumps. I'm gonna jump it one day, but when that day comes, who knows. I'm not jumping it until I'm at least 90% confident I can stand up my 190 and safely land it in any condition I'm willing to jump in. One of my stupid, but semi-logical thoughts, is I when can confidently jump the 190 I'll be able to accumulate some jumps before I have to cutaway to the 176 and gain some experience (fingers crossed, knock on wood, pray to skydiving gods). I already know... You don't have to say it.

[GooniesKid 0]

Apollo87

I appreciate the concern, but I just spent every penny I've earned over the last 5 months on a new container and pulse with <120 jumps.

I'm not jumping it until I'm at least 90% confident I can stand up my 190 and safely land it in any condition I'm willing to jump in.

One of my stupid, but semi-logical thoughts, is I when can confidently jump the 190 I'll be able to accumulate some jumps before I have to cutaway to the 176 and gain some experience (fingers crossed, knock on wood, pray to skydiving gods). I already know... You don't have to say it.

You should have spent the last 5 months of your milk money getting coached jumps, paying for a canopy course, renting and trying out different rigs. Instead, you got uber excited, begged grandma to foot the bill for a rig (that you don't even know you'll want when the time comes). Perhaps Brian Germain's canopy progression might help you:
http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

You're not jumping your said rig until you are 90% confident? Why don't you jump that rig when you are 100% confident?

And now you want to cross your fingers, pray to the gods, etc and just rely on luck instead of skill to get through this sport.

Can you please tell us which DZ you jump so I can avoid it? You're obviously a hazard to yourself AND OTHERS if you go down this path.

You opened this can of worms on yourself bro..not me

[NWFlyer 2]

You're right. You'll probably be okay.

If not, hope you've set aside some money for health insurance or it's provided with that job of yours.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke