Are you willing to land with the jump plane in the name of pilot training?

[skybum02 0]

*** Free Skydive to all Jumpers who volunteer to land in our jump airplane - In the name of pilot training and proficiency. *** That is what the headline should read from your local DZ mailing list.

Hello,
I'm proposing a poll to see if skydivers would be willing to land with the jump airplane once a month. Their jump ticket would be covered by the DZO and S&TA. This landing would be to aid in the training an proficiently of the jump pilots. If they are a new pilot maybe they would first see a demo of a heavy-weight return conducted by the chief pilot, and eventually practice once a month.

As a pilot or skydiver, you don't want to be performing your first "heavy-weight emergency return" under actual emergency or abnormal conditions. We skydivers have a hanging harness that we use to practice our cutaways and EPs but jump pilots only have the airplane. Their is no substitute for actual practice.

We all know that canopies fly differently at different wing loadings, well guess what... an airplane performs very different when it is heavily loaded and or with a different CG. It is probably a good thing to know how it is going to fly before going on Mr. Toad's Wild Ride of Aircraft Malfunctions trying to land with a few SOBs (Souls on Board).

This may seem like an odd question, why would I expose myself to this risk of landing in the jump airplane for what seems like a recreational and unnecessary landing? Well I propose that we use good Operational Risk Management (ORM) to mitigate our risk. This practice heavy-weight return would be conducted on the second load after the pilot has warmed up their hands and mind, conducted early in the day before fatigue sets in, and only with calm conditions. This will only leave the CG and weight as the different variables.

What is my experience with these types of landings? Well jumping in Colorado on a load with all experienced jumpers (500 ish jumps) we decided it would be smart to get in the air during 30 MPH winds with gusts. The pilot got a wind check and the ground was reporting winds around 40 MPH now. So we landed in the airplane. I've landed as a jumper in an Otter, a King Air, and a few other jump ships. It has been a while since I have personally piloted a Cessna 182, but in my current job I have landed an airplane at 750,000 lbs after we had lost a hydraulic system on takeoff. It wasn't a big deal since our training policy requires us to log 4 heavy weight landings every six months in the simulator.

Thanks for participating in the poll.

Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. - Vince Lombardi

Blue Skies,
Steve

Swooping, so easy a caveman could do it...

[Yossarian 0]

first of all id like to say of course i would, i dont see why not, ive had to land in the plane 3 times before in only 98 jumps, but this brings me to my second point...
doesnt this happen often enough anyway that it doesnt need to be planned? if its happened to me 3 times in around 70 visits to dropzones (twice in a dornier G92, once in a cessna 206) spread over 2 1/2 years, has it been like this for anyone else? obviously i might have just been unlucky (once had to come down as winds increased in the air, once because the clouds rolled in, and once because we went over the time we were allowed to drop due to local air traffic regs) but isnt that practice enough if that is a general trend?

[airtwardo 7]

Yes I think it's important, no I would not.

Been a crash test dummy too many times already.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ChrisL 2]

They can just load the plane with enough cargo to simulate a full load of jumpers and achieve the same goal.

Why bring real skydivers into pilot practice?

__

My mighty steed

[brianfry713 0]

I've never landed in a jump plane, but I don't have a problem doing it if I have to. I just like to jump out too much. The first time I ever landed in a small plane was when I took my first flying lesson.

I would guess at most DZ's you wouldn't have a problem filling up a load for free, on the condition that it did a pattern first. I'd even buy my slot and enjoy the extra ride in addition to the jump.

I hear from a lot of skydivers that are terrified of airplanes, heights, and other simple things. If you don't trust that the airplane can be landed safely you shouldn't get on it even with a parachute. You never know when the engine is going to die shortly after takeoff, and below 1,000 feet you're probably better off staying in the airplane.

If you jump at a DZ where you don't like the pilot, DZO, airplane, maintenance, procedures, or see anything else that makes you feel unsafe, you probably shouldn't be getting on the plane at all.

[AndyMan 7]

No.

Jumpers are entitled to professional well trained pilots on every jump - even the free ones.

If the pilot needs more training, he shouldn't be flying jumpers.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[tombuch 0]

I don’t mind landing with an airplane, but I’d rather not, and better pilot training can be had without real people in the aircraft. It wouldn’t be a bad idea for a new pilot to experience it once or twice in training, but if ongoing training is adequately planned, then it shouldn’t be necessary to use real people for real landings.

Landing with a full load isn’t such a big deal as long as there is adequate power and airspeed is maintained. It becomes much harder if there is a loss of power, or the pilot gets himself boxed into a corner. This is the kind of stuff pilots should be practicing at full load, and extra people (beyond an IP) should not be on board for that training.

With large aircraft the practice is best handled with a simulator to constantly repeat the process with little waste of flight time. With smaller aircraft that do not have full motion simulation available, the pilot should be practicing at altitude at max gross weight (secured cargo, not people), or as somebody suggested on another thread, with a throttle limit.

It’s pretty easy to simulate a takeoff or landing at altitude, and when done up high the simulation can be extended to a full stall so the pilot learns to recognize the indications of a stall, recovery technique, and limitations of a stall. The pilot should also be practicing steep turns with a full load at minimum speed to simulate a return to the airport after power loss, and those should extend to full stalls as well. Most of this stuff should already be accomplished as part of a biannual flight review, but those reviews are usually done empty. It’s far better if every pilot does these things at gross weight.

Flying without real jumpers makes the training safer, allows for more advanced maneuvers, and it is less expensive for the DZ. I'm a huge beliver in this kind of training.

If you really want to get jumpers involved in a training exercise, contact your local rescue squad as see if they want to drill an airplane accident. It’s great learning for the drop zone, and for the rescue squad, especially if you have a large plane that would overload the emergency response system. I’ve been involved in a couple of those skydiving mass casualty simulations, and it’s scary how poor the coordination is, and how much training the rescue squad needs. Helping local rescue workers (especially volunteer fire and ambulance departments) get better at their jobs is a great investment of our time. Plus, participating in the training helps jumpers to understand what role they can play in a real aircraft accident.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[billvon 2,995]

>If the pilot needs more training, he shouldn't be flying jumpers.

Most jump pilots are trained on-the-job. Heavily loaded DHC-6-300's are not readily available for pilot training. At most DZ's, this training comes about when the pilot has to land with jumpers due to ATC or weather issues.

[AndyMan 7]

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Most jump pilots are trained on-the-job.

Around here, most jump pilots are trained at Flight Safety in Toronto.

IMHO, that's an excellent trend.

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[DBCOOPER 5]

(secured cargo, not people)

900 lbs of what?

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[pilotdave 0]

I've landed in jump planes (with full loads) a bunch of times for various reasons. Not something I love to do, but I wouldn't really have a problem with it for training. I was once on a super otter load with a pilot that was being trained... the plane's owner, who was training the new pilot, asked if we minded him doing some training on that flight. We all said no, not a problem. What we didn't know is that he was planning to pull the power on one engine as we crossed over the treeline at the end of the runway. That was an interesting flight... I don't think we got higher than 400 feet for probably 5 miles.

Last year we had the winds pick way up (from 0 to gusting to 30 or so) while we were climbing. Manifest called and told the pilot to land with the load. The pilot had never landed a full caravan on our 1,800 foot runway before. He instilled all sorts of confidence in us when he said something like "I think I can do it..." He wouldn't take the suggestion to fly to a nearby international airport to drop us off. Landing went fine... but I've never heard skydivers so quiet for so long.

Then I was on the CASA at jumptown last year that ate a bird in the left engine as we lifted off. That was about the scariest flight I've been on in a long time. No problem with the landing, but from my seat I had no idea if we were heading for the runway or the woods. Just saw trees really close to us out the tailgate every once in a while until we touched down.

I think the scariest part of landings in jump planes is that we usually have bad visibility from where we sit. Just have to trust that the pilot is putting the plane where he's supposed to. I talked to our super otter pilot a few years ago about landing with full loads... she said it's actually easier for her than landing empty, but really not a huge difference.

Dave

[yeyo 1]

I've landed in the jump plane 3 times. Two for bad weather and 1 for pilot trainning.
DZO asked for volunteers for the first drop of a new pilot and he was going to do a touch-n-go before going to altitude. And there were no free tickets.

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[LloydDobbler 2]

I voted for yes, but would have voted for no had I read the thread first. D'oh!

Tom, your points (as usual) are well-thought-out, and well-taken.

I especially like the idea about training with a rescue squad. Search & Rescue does all sorts of mock-up operations during training to simulate potential incidents they might be called in for...but I've never heard of anyone doing it for this sort of scenario. I think your suggestion makes a lot of sense. (Especially, as you mentioned, having seen how some of the rescue ops sims turn out due to lack of contingency plans...and knowing that most DZ's are located away from big metropolitan areas, where rescue personnel might be more trained for local "passenger-loaded airplane down" incidents).

Practice definitely makes perfect...or at least gives a frame of reference, in case the "God Forbid" event ever actually does happen.

Gonna have to talk to the DZO about that one...

Signatures are the new black.

[mark 107]

If you board an airplane with the intention of landing in it, the FAA requires you to have an approved seat other than the floor. So if your jump plane doesn't have approved seats (most Cessnas and Skyvans, some Otters), what you are proposing is not legal in the US.

I'd be happy to help load the equivalent weight in lead shot, steel plate, or water bottles.

I'm all for pilot training, but I'm not for risking lives if there's an alternative method of making the weight and balance realistic.

Mark

[tdog 0]

I never really thought about it until this post...

When I land in a commercial Boeing or airbus model whatever - I have to admit the landings feel "weird". Why - because I now have 700ish more takeoffs than landings, so as a skydiver I am well trained in takeoffs, but not in landings, as a passenger.

I can see even the best and most professional pilots flying 25 loads a day with a full load on takeoff, and an empty load on landing, get "used to the feeling" or "out of practice" on landing with a full load.

I would gladly take off, land, take off, and jump, every once in a while so my already well trained pilot remembers and knows how to land a fully loaded plane... Keeping current... If this is for training a pilot not already qualified, then no, I am not willing to be on board.

For those of you who say no... Here is my question back-at-ya.... If you don't trust the pilot to land the plane safely, why did you get on? I have landed in a fully loaded plane on average 1 out of every 400 jumps due to winds/weather and probably about 1 out of 150 for AFF issues with students (helmet clips breaking, weather turning unfavorable for student jumps, etc)

[airtwardo 7]

If you don't trust the pilot to land the plane safely, why did you get on?

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Because I didn't 'plan' to land with him

I 'trust' that my reserve will open, but I don't pull it unless there IS no other choice.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[speedy 0]

Due to the weather here in Germany we do this a few times a year. The pilot even gets a round of applause after he has landed
How about are you willing to sit in the plane as the engine fails at 400 ft ?

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[diverdriver 5]

Awesome post! I 100% support this! People you are doing yourself a favor if you help the pilot out once in awhile and provide some ballast for them to practice some heavy landings.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[airtwardo 7]

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Awesome post! I 100% support this! People you are doing yourself a favor if you help the pilot out once in awhile and provide some ballast for them to practice some heavy landings.

I don't know Chris, an otter on concrete maybe, a 182 into a grass strip at 3-4000' F.E. on a hot day...is another.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[velvetjo 0]

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I don't know Chris, an otter on concrete maybe, a 182 into a grass strip at 3-4000' F.E. on a hot day...is another.

Unless it's a really chewed up dog turd of a grass strip, I'll take a 182 landing onto grass anyday over concrete. Especially at max gross with no power.

Lance

[airtwardo 7]

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I don't know Chris, an otter on concrete maybe, a 182 into a grass strip at 3-4000' F.E. on a hot day...is another.

Unless it's a really chewed up dog turd of a grass strip, I'll take a 182 landing onto grass anyday over concrete. Especially at max gross with no power.

Lance

I'm looking to the pic of the 206 upsidedown I landed in, wasn't a chewed up dog turd...but then again, enough so to deep 6 the nose gear.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[diverdriver 5]

Hey, if people feel like they'd rather have balast on board during normal full plane landing practice then do it. But it needs to be done.

A King Air crashed years ago in Michigan in an accelerated stall. That was a high time pilot who should have known better. But adding this little bit to training is easy and should be done some how. If they can put some balast on then power off manuevering should be practiced also at altitude.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[airtwardo 7]

If they can put some balast on then power off manuevering should be practiced also at altitude.

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Couldn't agree more...


I just don't like being the 'balast' anymore!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[velvetjo 0]

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I'm looking to the pic of the 206 upsidedown I landed in, wasn't a chewed up dog turd...but then again, enough so to deep 6 the nose gear.

That's no fun. Maybe it was just a regular dog turd?

182's typically aren't a huge deal on grass if you keep the nose light. 206's have a reputation for being more nose-heavy, but I haven't flown one so I don't know firsthand. I learned in a 150, several 172's and a 182 from an 1800' grass strip, and I'm glad I trained there.

I don't know many pilots who train for soft and short takeoffs or landings, but the reality of grass strips (and lots of other places a jump pilot might be forced to land) often requires this hybrid technique. It's a shame that so many insurance companies & FBO's prohibit landings on grass. That's almost as bad as the chief instructor at an FBO near here who thinks 3000' of asphalt is a short runway...

Lance

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I have done this at least five or six times over the years. At the DZ I used to work at it was the last thing the pilot had to do before the DZO would jump out. If the pilot had any talent we would do it again that year when they graduated from the 182 to the 205. I have also done this on a Westjet FO's first 737 landing (ROUGH). The big difference here was we had to pay for our ticket and we were not given any warning.