Military Freefall training VS Civilian Freefall training.

[Viking 0]

My brother and i got into a discussion on which is better. It started when he said that the AFF training received wasn't worth shit b/c it wasn't military. I laughed at him and told him that he had no clue what he was talking about. So the question is which is better?

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[quade 4]

Why not ask some of the SEALs down at SDSD tomorrow?

Seriously, they're two completely different things with two completely different goals.

Just because you get training in one, doesn't mean you'd be any good at the other.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Viking 0]

I will probly ask Mike Ford. He is a member of the Navy Demo team.

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[freeflir29 0]

OK...here's how HALO school goes. Spend 2 weeks at Ft. Bragg and fly with Chuck in the tunnel. Not sure how much time each individual student gets but I'm sure it's not more than a couple minutes. Then go to Yuma Proving Grounds for a couple more weeks. Make about 25-35 jumps. These jumps usually include...1 "Oxygen" jump from 18,000 or so with a bail out bottle, Day and night equipment, Hop & Pop from 12,500, one "Low" pass from ~5000. None of these jumps are "AFF" style. All they do is give you a rig and a yellow jumpsuit and throw you out. An instructor comes along to watch you and your jump buddy. He evaluates your stability and grades you on your opening altitude. He's not supposed to touch you!!!
AFF and HALO are two totally differen't things. HALO just wouldn't work for civilian applications. Most people couldn't do it. IMHO

[Shark 0]

Viking,

There are a few guys on here that are MFFIs. Hopefully they can answer all your questions. At Elsinore, there are also a few instructors that also teach at the MFF school. I only know what the guys tell me, but I have had a couple of students, Recon guys fresh out of the MFF, that were completing their proficiency cards for the "A" license. It is pretty different and just like Clay says, the MFFIs do not take grips on the students. Elsinore once had a program for SEALs just out of 3rd phase and jump school, complete AFF. I'm not sure if they (probably the Navy), intend on bringing it back.

[freeflir29 0]

Oh....one other thing I forgot......the REALLY "Special" people.....have contractors that do modified AFF... Granted....thats due more to the constraints of slot availability for the HALO school than it is whether one is better than the other. *shrug*

[Shark 0]

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Oh....one other thing I forgot......the REALLY "Special" people.....have contractors that do modified AFF... Granted....thats due more to the constraints of slot availability for the HALO school than it is whether one is better than the other. *shrug*

Dude!

How long have you been known as "Geronimo?"

PS> They got their own CASA, too.

[freeflir29 0]

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How long have you been known as "Geronimo?"

I got that at the 10,000 post mark. Which I was duely pied for at Atlanta Air Sportz by Hisgoofyness and Blondflyer7.

[BikerBabe 0]

erm...I was taught via AFF. In the military. But I guess it's a special case.

At the AFA, you get your Air Force jump wings by completing 30 hrs of ground training and then 5 unassisted 10-sec delays. If you like it so much you HAVE to do it again (like me), you can try out for the team, where the first thing you do is an AFF progression. Interesting fact: as far as I know, the AFA is the only place in the US where your very first jump is a solo freefall...

So...there are exceptions to every rule, I guess.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[prepheckt 0]

This is true...As far as I know, there are only two places that you can recieve your basic mililtary jump wings...that is the Air Force Academy in their AM 490 jump class or Ft. Benning, GA which isn't freefall but static line jumping. Anyone back this up???. This is what I was told when I did it at the AFA

"Dancing Argentine Tango is like doing calculus with your feet."
-9 toes

[freeflir29 0]

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At the AFA, you get your Air Force jump wings by completing 30 hrs of ground training and then 5 unassisted 10-sec delays

Not quite what I was talking about. Yes, the AFA has it's little program but I hate to call that "The Military" It's pretty far from that.... Any chance Duey was an instructor while you were there?

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there are only two places that you can recieve your basic mililtary jump wings.

I wouldn't really say that....As I mentioned there are "Special" people out there that have "In house" training programs but for 99% of the military that is true. Of course.....we always used to tell "Cadidiots" not to wear their wings while cooking dinner. They might melt right off your uniform.

[Austin 0]

That's what we were told at the AFA when I went through their freefall program. The ground school there is MUCH more thorough than static line ground school or IAF ground school (done them both).
It was a pretty sweet deal going to the class though (i did it over the summer a couple of years ago).

Austin

[mffi422 0]

OKAY...LOL....Way off the mark. Here goes...

7 days at Ft. Bragg where all ground classroom instruction is taught. Everything that is taught in an AFF class but of course greatly expanded on. Obviously a tremendous amount of military information is included.

Each student spends almost two hours of time in the tunnel throughout the week. BUT, not with Chuck. 8-9 MFFIs go to FT. Bragg and while some instructors are giving classes, other MFFIs are controlling and flying in the tunnel. You can probably imagine the amount of tunnel time the instructors get!

The amount of jumps each students receive is about what you said but can greatly vary due to various reasons.

Students are not just thrown out of the aircraft. Due to the amount of tunnel time they receive they can opt to do a solo exit or be harness held. All but a few instructors at the school are AFFIs/AFFEs. As for touching the students, of course it's allowed and is done on almost every jump in their early stages. I can send thousands of hours of video showing just what a MFFI can and must do to save students from fatal errors. Ever have to save a student from a violent spin, on his back wearing a 50 pound MC-4 with a weapon, O2 equipment and a 50 pound ruck? It's a job!

The Jumps:

Day 1: 3 jumps (harness hold if necessary) slick (1 student and instructor)

Day 2: 3 jumps Slick (1 student and instructor). The 6th jump is a graded exercise where the student has to perform to a level of proficiency dictated by the school POI. If he passes, he moves on. If not, he has a retrain and a retest jump.

Day 3: 3 jumps (1 student and instructor) with a 45-50 pound ruck and weapon.

Day 4: 3 jumps. the same as above. On the 11th jump the student again has a graded exercise to pass with the same criteria as stated above. The 12th jump is an O2 jump at 12,500 or 17,500 with O2 consoles on board. The next jump is a 2-1 (2 students and 1 instructor) while both wearing equipment.

After the 2-1s are completed, the students move on to larger groups (groups of 8) for military tactical purposes.

Day 5: 3 jumps. All grouping jumps with 2 instructors. The 1st being slick and the others adding combat equipment and O2.

The next week is more combat equipment O2 grouping jumps from various altitudes. 12,500 - 17,500. HAHOs and low shows are also done this week. Various exits are used throughout the course (doors/ramps, etc.)

Night week is a repeat of everything done the previous weeks. NO LIGHTS.

Average class: 8-9 slick, 15-20 Combat equipment, and 8-10 O2 jumps (some with consoles also)

Although AFF and MFF is different they do have their similarities. And since alot of "I"s at the school work at civilian dropzones, AFF techniques are frequently used.

Hope this clears things up for everyone.

[BikerBabe 0]

Yep...Dewey was there...you know him?

Think I'll leave this thread, since I have just found out that I am not in the military...

Call it what you like, Clay, but at least I got my first 250 jumps, including AFF training, several airshow and stadium demos, and my military JM rating all for free.

Now...I have a demo to go jump...

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[mjasantos 0]

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AFF and HALO are two totally different things.

Right!

Simply put, AFF is a method (way) of learning / teaching on how to skydive (free fall). Being so, can be used on both the civilian and military schools, without any problem.

HALO (abbreviation for "High Altitude Low Opening") is an operational (military) infiltration method, when jumping from altitudes (usually above 25,000 ft up to 35,000 ft) where's mandatory the requirement of breathing supplementary Oxygen (to avoid hypoxia effects) with the adequate O2 equipment (O2 mask type MBU 12-P or similar, AirOx regulator, high pressure - 1800/200 psi - O2 bottles, on board O2 console, etc.), using main canopies type MT1-X or similar (370 sq ft), while carrying weapons and military equipment on a rucksack (weighting up to 120 Lbs), and most of the times following a free fall container with drug chute containing additional equipment for the operation (aka Canadian Tube - weighting about 250 Lbs), generally at night... to be able to jump in a HALO mission, you definitely need to know how to skydive and that could have been learnt in so many different ways, as the military teaching of skydiving all around the world varies a lot: can start with static line, follow to progressive increasing delays in freefall, or start with a tandem jump, followed by AFF method, or even have ground instruction, with wind tunnel instruction, then going up and skydive 1st time from 13,500 ft assisted by 1 instructor instead 2, or AFF but using just one instructor only all the way out, or even (as in the Military Free Fall Course in the UK) have ground instruction and go up on the 1st jump as 13,500 ft with one instructor, but where the student jumps solo (with the instructor being close and docking on him only if he isn't able to gain stability)... this last I saw working, and throughout 50 jumps I haven't seen any major problem (this was back in 1989)... there a lot of different teaching methods on how to skydive... AFF is one, probably the most used, known and effective on our days... but HALO is a very different thing as I explained...

There's another method of operational infiltration aka as HAHO (High Altitude High Opening)... jumping also from altitudes where additional O2 breathing is required, but deploying main from 5 up to 10 seconds after the exit... with the same or similar equipments mentioned for the HALO...

Hope have helped.

Blue Skies!

-----------------------------
Mario Santos
Portugal

[steve1 5]

One of the newcomers at our DZ is a former Recon Marine. He also went through HALO, Ranger, and Special Forces training. I would think that what he learned would be very applicable to changing over to civilian jumping. The owner of our DZ is a former member of the Navy Four Way team and a former world champion. He says he loves to train and work with people who are former military, because you only have to tell them once what to do and they usually get it.

This is off the subject, but is it easier now to get HALO school? I would have given my right testicle to get this training back in the olden days, but it was very hard to get. I have a friend who jumps in Minot. He is an E.O.D person in the Air Force. They told him if he would re-up they would give him jump school (at Ft. Benning) and Halo school (at Ft.Bragg). We were all going on and on about how lucky he was. We were all green with envy. So he re-upped a few weeks ago. Since then both of these schools were dropped and his orders changed. Wouldn't that be a pisser! Steve 1

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

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Each student spends almost two hours of time in the tunnel throughout the week. BUT, not with Chuck.

Dino beat me to the punch. While I am an MFFJM and complete tunnel whore, I have absolutely nothing to do with any of the B company MFF training. Today's "white side" MFF Instructors undergo a lot of training to get them ready for dealing with those out of control students. First, they must be MFFJM qualified, then prior to being able to lay hands on students they must attend and pass the Advanced MFF Course (8 weeks). From there they test out for their "I" and shadow a course. Nowadays, the school also contracts out an AFF course director once a year minimum and runs everyone through it so that there can be absolutely no doubt that their instructors have at least the same qualifications as civilian schools. Back before the advent of the AMFF course and the AFF continuing education, there were "I" rated MFF instrutors with less than 200 jumps. I clearly remember some of these guys not being able to skydive worth a shit on the weekends back in the mid 80's. Our current train-up program is outstanding and our instructors are first rate; you can believe that.

The "black side" courses are a different matter completely, as are the cert courses that the Navy has been running for the last couple of years. Black side courses are generally run with AFF instructors from within the ranks of the unit and are "validated" by cadre from our MFF school so that their graduates can receive diplomas from USAJFKSWC (the acronym for our whole schoolhouse). Likewise, their tandem program is taught inhouse and validated by The Relative Workshop.

Lately, the Navy has been running two separate B-license certification courses; one east coast and one west coast. Upon completion of this civilian contracted AFF-based cert, they contract cadre from our MFF school to run a "challenge" course (a 10-day program of instruction when we do it in-house). Upon completion of the challenge course, graduates are issued SWC diplomas, just like "regular" students get. The bottom line is that there are many ways to skin the same cat.

While it is possible for an MFF student to complete all the gates of training in as few as 18 jumps, since we moved our school from Fort Bragg out to Yuma Proving Grounds, AZ, the average class ends up making about 30-35 jumps. They leave there with a logbook and a USPA A-card signed by any one of the AFFIs who trained them. This clearly sets them up for success should they choose to pursue skydiving as a sport. Those who come back to Bragg are pointed over to the GB club and are then transitioned to BOC sport gear by myself or anyone of our other instructors around the DZ. Generally, there is very little left on their A-card to complete when they get to us. Their freefall skills are such that we don't generally have a problem checking the blocks. Still, since we went to ISP at Raeford, everyone gets the same level of training; there is no such a thing as a seven-jump "graduate" anymore.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF,SL,Tandem Instructor
Raeford Parachute Center

[mffi422 0]

Thanks Chuck. Very Good post!!!

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Mario had a good post there, too. Man, I have seen some serious nig-noggery when it comes to freefall training in third-world countries. Let me relay my Guatemala story to you:

In 1990 I was on a six-month trip down there in Puerto San Jose, on the coast. They teach both the basic SL airborne course there as well as their military freefall course and have a parachute brigade stationed on the base. Anyway, I was on a HALO team at the time, but we were not there specifically to jump. Still, I brought two of my personal rigs and extra stuff down there because I knew we would get to jump all we wanted. They would train SL troops most of the day out of either their Arava (flying football) or their DC-3. At around noon, they would send a soldado over to where I was training an 81mm mortar course and tell me it was time to skydive; it was very cool.

Now check this out: these dudes had a huge variety of gear, ranging from 1960's MC-3 ParaCommanders all the way up to brand-new military Javelins with Mantas. The senior cadre of the school and most experienced jumpers generally had specific rigs that were for their own use, but everyone else got gear based on how tough and fast they were; it was funny. Everyone stood in a formation in front of the rigger shed in order of what pass they were getting out of the plane. You see, the less experience you had, the lower you got out. In their basic course, they were taught only by table drills and live, individual exits. None of the rigs had automatic openers; you either pulled your string or you went in! In the school, they flew over the top at 3500 feet and you poised out the door and pulled. If you lived through that, you got to go to the next pass over the dropzone at 5000 feet. If you stayed stable the whole way and didn't frap, on the next jump you got to get out on the next pass at 7,500, etc, etc. Malfunctions were common and fatialities were expected (one dude went in while we were there). So, we stood there in formation in lines broken down by what pass (how high) you were going. Those of us in the back all went to at least 12,500 every day and we all had our rigs guaranteed (I jumped my sport gear on all but three out of nearly 100 jumps I made there). The monkeys in the front ranks stood there patiently until the commander of the school blew a whistle at which point those dudes scrambled into the rigger shed and fought, literally, over the gutter gear that was left! It was monkey madness.

I watched from the back for several jumps and could not believe how dicked-up these guys exits were. Lots and lots of guys pulling on their backs. All the young jumpers were graded from the door by one of the school cadre. If the "student" pulled unstable, he was coached on the ground (no tunnels there, my friend, sorry) and made to repeat the jump from the same altitude. They never had anyone with enough skill to fly down and get you stable. Likewise, most of the loads from altitude were complete zoos when I first got there. Nobody there had ever launched any exits or floated outside, so when I recommended it to them they were pretty freaked. Eventually, myself, the chief rigger there (Mario Sagastume) and the commander of the school started chunking three-ways and laying base (more like "target" in this case). After a short time, I had them doing some very tight grouping. These dudes were also jumping huge, floppy 1970s/early 80s suits which were giving them a hard time. They asked my permission and I allowed them to take my solid black "work" suit apart and make patterns. A week later, they all had tighter fitting, tactical jumpsuits (with grippers, just for shits and grins).

On a side note, I also taught them safe CRW. Their demonstration team had been jumping ParaFoils and two of them had gotten fairly proficient at ramming into each other and doing two-stacks. I saw this and cringed, then told them that they would be far better off using some of their more suitable gear. I ended up finding out that their best choice were the five military Javs with Mantas they had. Remember, this is WAY before CRW dogs went to small canopies. Anyway, I was on the first three-stack in history there, the first downplane, the first side by side.

When I left that place after six months, I was presented with the flag that flew over the school and during the wing exchange I was given the sterling silver master wings of the school's commander; it was humbling and awesome. Those guys were great and once they opened up to me, were like sponges, taking in every bit of institutional knowledge I could pass on to them. I was not ever really sure why they had a MFF program, seeing as they didn't have a single troop transport plane what was capable of taking anyone to true HALO altitudes. True, the Aravas could, but what's the point when you don't own a single peice of oxygen gear? We did do some kick-ass cross-country jumps after I coaxed them into thinking it was a smart idea. It was beautiful there and those jumps were very cool.

Sorry for rambling, but those are some good memories.

Chuck

[steve1 5]

Great story Chuck! Steve1

[Shark 0]

Chuckster,

Great Sea-story! I liked the fact that you created the "GuateMonkeys" down there.
And CReW, Central American style..