3-way belly dive separation issue

[voltage 0]

Hi there,

yesterday I was on a 3-way RW dive that ended in a way that is giving me afterthoughts today.

Involved were the freeflyer (150 jumps), me (80 jumps) and the rookie (30 jumps). Plan was to break formation at about 5000 feet and turn and track.

The freeflyer went low quite early in the formation and then he choose to do some freeflying with the altitude left. I stayed with rookie guy and separated normally. While tracking I suddenly saw freefly guy tracking DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH me in exactly the same direction. I quickly glanced back to find rookie guy but he wasn't behind me anymore, couldn't see him and feared he was tracking after me or some way to my side. I made the decision to only slightly alter my tracking direction (maybe 30 degree) from the freefly guy's tracking path below fearing to come to close to rookie guy, and instead track a little longer than usual.

I dumped about 500 feet lower than planned and opened uncomfortably near the freefly guy. Turns out the rookie had opened higher than expected so that was the reason I didn't see him in the later part of my tracking.

Now I tend to think I did not react in the best way and that I should have changed my tracking path more (around 90 degree to freefly guy).

What would you (experienced guys) have done in such a situation?

Thanks, Andi

[2shay 0]

I am a freeflyer and if you are on a belly dive you should stick with the dive and not freefly just because you went low. If you tell everyone you are going to that is a little different. I think that you did the best you could. You sound alert and safe concious.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[Yossarian 0]

dont take this as advice, im in no position to give it, but i would have turned about 45-90degress right or left depending on where i thought the other guy probably was based on where id last seen him (not ideal i know) but at least then id be sure that i wasnt over the freeflyer.

to be honest id have a word with the going low, giving up on getting back and using the time to freefly in my opinion added unnecessary risk as it introduced further separation, had the potential for you to lose sight of him completely, and was not part of the plan.

[Tonto 1]

Firstly, congratulations on surviving.

For me, it's a little scary to hear someone with 80 dives call someone else on the load a rookie, but I think you did OK under the circumstances.

The root cause of this problem was the (not very) senior jumper.
He changed the plan mid dive, and in doing so placed the 2 of you at risk. While we all want value from our jump ticket, boring a hole down the tube under your 2 way was not cool.

The rookie did well. I'm guessing he knew Mr Senior was low, and he was clear of you, and so he pitched a little high. Good for him.

You were dealt the worst hand. The senior took it 500 ft lower too if he was close to you. I think that was your window. Best response from you would have been to carve the track off a bit - maybe even as much as 90 degrees as you mentioned, and deploy at your planned altitude, and so give the low guy the basement to play in.

Again, well done on the awareness you showed, and on making a desision. Many people don't even get that far.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[rehmwa 2]

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The freeflyer went low quite early in the formation and then he choose to do some freeflying with the altitude left.

this just boggles my mind

If it was my jump, I'd have kept them both in view - but for 80 jumps, you survived jumping with one idiot. CONGRATs

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[voltage 0]

It was not really possible to keep them both in view, for me.

The thing is, as a rookie myself it is very difficult to talk to more expierienced jumpers with criticism. I found mostly they will ignore you based on the fact that they have more jumps than you. Hell, even fellow rookie jumpers are difficult to give tips to most of the time, nobody likes to aknowledge he is doing something wrong.

I have to say I start to feel a little bit worried at times. People giving me congratulation on surviving for this issue is disturbing.

[rehmwa 2]

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It was not really possible to keep them both in view, for me.

That's fine, I'm talking about your next jump now. Not the one we can't change.

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people giving me congratulation on surviving for this issue is disturbing.

It's a wonderful thing, not disturbing.

Look, you guys bit off a 3 way that you weren't ready for (with those 3 in combination). One guy (150 jumps) absolutely showed horrible judgment and put the other two in danger. You have just the beginnings of your skill ramp and still managed to note the other guy shifting to some odd flying behavior after going really low (maybe he was freeflying, maybe he was doing wierd stuff trying to get back up); you must have stuck with the other jumper during this part; you observed the 150 jumper during your track and decided to take action to avoid a potential collision while trying to continue on something at least consistent for the sake of the 3rd jumper.

You did a lot of stuff right. Take the lesson and be glad the one idiot didn't dump his canopy. Take the other lesson and work on being aware of where everybody is from exit through to landing. Take another lesson and remember to stick with the plan and expect that from others. Take another lesson and keep your expectations reasonable even for things as small as 3 ways (when mixing low experience and hack freeflyers).

I'm very impressed with you. If the other jumper won't take your feedback, just be extra aware if you jump with him again. Or even choose to take a pass on it. In the end, you have direct control on your decisions, not his.

It's happended to all of us. We learn our lessons and go make another jump.

Congrats, you did fine

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[voltage 0]

Thanks guys for the replies.

Appreciate the opinion and feedback from "outside".

[livendive 8]

I agree with all the stuff Bill said there. You did good. Without knowing you or criticizing you in the least, I can say one tool I like to have in my backpocket for a wide variety of circumstances is exceptional tracking skills. I'm kinda fat...definitely not the shape of a born tracker, but I can scoot pretty flat and pretty fast because I made a point of developing the skill. Being able to say "C-YA!" comes in especially handy when things get sketchy during break-off.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[squarecanopy 0]

I am a rookie too. What I have learned so far with two ways and three ways I have done is that we PLAN the breakoff and assign a specific duty to each jumper. Typically on 3 ways we have one jumper stay put, one tracks perpendicular to the jump run one way, the third tracks 180 degrees from the first tracker(again, perpendicular to the jump run always). That puts us plenty far apart at deployment, and staying away from the group ahead of us and behind us. Good for you for seeing the screwup here and learning from it. Blue Skies Safe Landings, Bill

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[Remster 30]

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Typically on 3 ways we have one jumper stay put, one tracks perpendicular to the jump run one way, the third tracks 180 degrees from the first tracker

I really dont like the idea of one of the jumper staying put.

Remster

[Andy9o8 2]

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Typically on 3 ways we have one jumper stay put, one tracks perpendicular to the jump run one way, the third tracks 180 degrees from the first tracker

I really dont like the idea of one of the jumper staying put.

Neither do I, so I'll add to this:

1. If you plot a sample break-off out on paper and do simple math, you'll see that having all 3 jumpers turn & track creates more overall separation than if only 2 track away & 1 stays in place. Add to this (only 2 tracking away) newer jumpers with weaker tracking skills and possibly a couple of off-heading openings and you can see the enhanced danger of not having all 3 turn & track.

2. Anyone who can't be trusted to turn and track reliably needs to stick with 2-ways until he can be. (exception: if he's jumping only with very experienced RW jumpers who are very heads-up and have excellent tracking skills).

3. Anyone who needs the false comfort of the "simplicity" of having 1 guy stay in place while you and the other jumpers track also needs to stick with 2-ways until you're more confident being on more complex jumps.

[Andy9o8 2]

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The freeflyer went low quite early in the formation and then he choose to do some freeflying with the altitude left.

I've had this happen to me while on RW jumps (people either out or at breakoff going into a sit or HD when they should stay on their bellies), and I do not tolerate it. That was no time for him to be f-ing around creating even more vertical separation when people needed to keep him in view. Best thing was he should have de-arched and tried to get back up until breakoff altitude. A distant second best would have been to stay flat and begin tracking away early (but I prefer the first option because it keeps him in view).

[jakee 1,489]

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Typically on 3 ways we have one jumper stay put, one tracks perpendicular to the jump run one way, the third tracks 180 degrees from the first tracker(again, perpendicular to the jump run always). That puts us plenty far apart at deployment, and staying away from the group ahead of us and behind us.

Why? If you're that worried about being too close to other groups on deployment then you're not leaving enough exit seperation.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,991]

>Typically on 3 ways we have one jumper stay put, one tracks
>perpendicular to the jump run one way, the third tracks 180 degrees from
>the first tracker(again, perpendicular to the jump run always).

eek! The biggest danger to you at breakoff is not the other groups in the air, it is the other people in your group. I strongly recommend you do NOT sacrifice separation from each other to try to achieve greater separation from other groups. The best place to ensure safe group separation is in the airplane, by allowing enough time between groups. Once you've done that, have everyone track away from the center of your dive to get safe separation from each other.

[rehmwa 2]

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one tracks perpendicular to the jump run one way, the third tracks 180 degrees from the first tracker(again, perpendicular to the jump run always).

worrying about other groups (by the obsession to "perpendicular to jump run" thing) shows you guys need to review exit order and exit separation.

Get away from each other. Don't worry about the group in front or behind you. That should be dealt with by the delay between groups.

"Perpendicular" is a great thing to keep in mind for tracking dives and wing suit dives and CrW dives. For RW (in any freefall orientation), it's a bogus thing to worry about on a 3 way or larger.

edit; Oops, BV already got this in print first.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AS1 0]

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"The thing is, as a rookie myself it is very difficult to talk to more expierienced jumpers with criticism. I found mostly they will ignore you based on the fact that they have more jumps than you."

I don't see the difference between 80 jumps and 150 jumps as that significant. Experience is what you know not how many jumps it took you to learn it. You are obviously more experienced than him in this respect.

In my opinion you owe it to everyone to have a word. If you don't and he thinks his behaviour is acceptable he may do it again. If he puts someone else at risk (or God forbid worse) how will you feel? If he won't listen simply because he has 70 more jumps than you then I'd discuss it with an instructor at the DZ. If he still won't listen I wouldn't jump with him again.

I have similar jump numbers to you both. I know its been said before but - plan the dive, dive the plan. When jumping with others with similar numbers to me we also have a "what do we do if someone";- goes low, floats, can't be seen at break off, etc etc etc. We try to think of all contingencies we can and plan for them.

Egos and complacency. Get you killed one day.

[AFFI 0]

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Egos and complacency. Get you killed one day.

that would be a good sig line...

[squarecanopy 0]

Why? If you're that worried about being too close to other groups on deployment then you're not leaving enough exit seperation.

[AFFI 0]

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I am reluctant to track except perpendicular to jump run because of previous close calls at deployment. I am very interested to learn from this.

The rule of thumb is:
On formations skydives, each jumper should turn 180 degrees from the center of the formation and track away from the formation in a straight line.

Why do you suppose the multitudes of skydivers who came before you as well as the USPA came up this? Why do you suppose separation from the group is more important that worrying about separation from subsequent groups?
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

Please, anyone chime in on this – what is too close to jumpers opening in the subsequent group?


800’? 400’? 300’? 200’? 100’? 50’? 10’???


I am speculating here in creating a scenario:

Perhaps the DZO wants to keep additional jump runs to a minimum, I have heard of this before, sacrificing an overkill of safety for saving $$$ for flying time on the airplane…

Does it then make sense to worry about tracking perpendicular to jump run on smaller formation skydives?
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[billvon 2,991]

>Does it then make sense to worry about tracking perpendicular to
>jump run on smaller formation skydives?

From a safety perspective, I think you are still better off tracking from the center. The people near you are a bigger risk than the people from the next group - bigsky theory at work again.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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The freeflyer went low quite early in the formation and then he choose to do some freeflying with the altitude left.

Repeat after me: "Plan the dive, dive the plan!" The freeflier IMO made a poor decision here, especially with rookies on the dive.

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I made the decision to only slightly alter my tracking direction (maybe 30 degree) from the freefly guy's tracking path below fearing to come to close to rookie guy, and instead track a little longer than usual.

I think you made a reasonable decision, although had it been me, I'd have altered my direction more like 60-90 degrees, and kept an eye open for the rookie.

Sometimes the right thing to do is dump high... I have a very flat track, and will occasionally end up above or parallel to someone who would not be able to see me. On a 3-way, I would alter course like you, but on a 12-way that wouldn't work... I'd just end up above someone else. Instead, it would be better to dump at 3500 or so, and allow the other person to provide the separation.

I'll probably get yelled at for that comment because if the other person also opens high it could backfire... but in my opinion that is less risky than waiting, possibly having someone dump in your face, and then having to go low to avoid opening near them.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."