Intentional cutaway: advisable? accessible?

[LittleOne 0]

I have 325 jumps in 2.5 years without a cutaway. I came close a few times but had enough altitude to fix the spinning line twists. There are people who did not have a cutaway until X,000 jumps but at this point, I would feel much more confident going through the procedure. I have seen the RWS Skyhook equipped intentional cutaway rigs at boogies but I don't want to jump those since my rig does not have a Skyhook. Here are my questions:

1. Is it allowable for me, at my experience level, to jump an intentional cutaway rig? I read some posts on this subject and it seems like the people who have done this are far more advanced than I am.

2. Where can I find/rent an intentional cutaway rig or a third canopy to add to my current rig? Sure, I've seen test jumpers at DeLand jumping them all the time but if I just waltz into a manufacturer's offices, will they let me rent one (with proper training, of course)?

3. Is this a good idea at all or should I just muddle along practicing my EPs on the ground and in the plane (which I would continue to do regardless)? I know that I would feel so much better knowing that I can and already have executed the emergency procedures before the first malfunction actually occurs.

4. If the RWS Skyhook cutaway rigs are the best way to go, will they allow me to disable the Skyhook for the cutaway? (I think that can be done...?)

Is there anything else I should consider? Thanks for the advice!

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

I was also looking into doing an intentional cutaway at Deland for about a year. I think it'd be a good experience, however it is planned and expected, so as far as the impact on the psyché might not be the same but would give you an idea of the feeling of the main risers release and going back into freefall as well as how quickly you can expect the reserve to come out.

I recently had my first cutaway and feel more comfortable with the design and performance of our "back up plan".

Bottomline...when it's time for you to cutaway...I'm sure you'll know what you need to do and take care of business.

_________________________________________

[NWFlyer 2]

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practicing my EPs on the ground and in the plane

Have you done a hanging harness? Every time I do it I'm always a little shocked by the little drop when I pull the cutaway handle. It isn't perfect, but it's certainly a better approximation of the real thing than just touching/pulling handles on the ground.

I don't have any comment on the intentional cutaway experience. I'm even less experienced than you, so interested in hearing what the long-timers have to say about the idea.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[yarpos 4]

Hi

I think its a great idea. It does give you that extra bit of experience and familiarity when it comes around for real. I went through this process and thought it helped later when it mattered.

Not sure why you would want to disconnect the skyhook. Yes it will beat you but you get the same experience when you chop and pull. If its on its way out already, its no big deal.

enjoy

regards, Steve
the older I get...the better I was

[labrys 0]

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4. If the RWS Skyhook cutaway rigs are the best way to go, will they allow me to disable the Skyhook for the cutaway? (I think that can be done...?)

If you want to disable the skyhook just disconnect the shackle like any other rsl.

Owned by Remi #?

[LittleOne 0]

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If you want to disable the skyhook just disconnect the shackle like any other rsl.

Wouldn't it kind of piss off the RWS rep if I demo'd the skyhook rig only to disable the skyhook?

[kkeenan 14]

One of the manufacturers, I believe it is Strong, made a few intentional cutaway rigs for tandem master training. I'm not sure if those are loaned out for other purposes, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Kevin

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[piisfish 140]

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Is there anything else I should consider?

Let me pack for you

One day will happen when you just feel you're not going to clear the twists or whatever mal, and then.. chop chop...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[riggerrob 643]

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One of the manufacturers, I believe it is Strong, made a few intentional cutaway rigs for tandem master training. I'm not sure if those are loaned out for other purposes, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Kevin

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes,
Several tandem manufacturers have assembled special rigs for intentional cutaways.
They are normally rented to guys who have 500 jumps (the minimum to become a tandem instructor) but are such neat packers that they have never suffered a malfunction.
At least one tandem manufacturer requires prospective tandem instructors to correctly handle a malfunction before attending a tandem instructor certification course.
I have an old chest-mounted reserve that I sometimes loan to these keen, young lads.
Intentional cutaways are complex and should not be attempted without thorough ground training.

My pet peeve is stumbling through drainage ditches - searching for cutaway mains and freebags - while the recovery crew drinks beer and brags about how great they are!

[tetra316 0]

I think everyone who has access to an intentional cutaway rig should jump one regardless of experience. With proper briefing of course. I don't know what kind of setups the manufacturers make but a guy on our dz had one made for about $250 or so. Basically its just like a harness with out the parachute that has three rings. You attach a parachute then wear your regular rig over the harness. Cutaway system works the same as a regular rig then you deploy your main. I've done three and since I've yet to have a mal it makes for great training for one. Plus it's fun to see how bad you can spin it up. But of course you do have to be aware of the extra handles.

edited for spelling

[mjosparky 4]

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I think everyone who has access to an intentional cutaway rig should jump one regardless of experience.

That is a reckless statement. Intentional cutaways add more than just another layer of complexity to the jump. The risk of pilot error goes way up.

The rig you described sounds like it is deployed by someone holding the bag as the jumper exits. This type of deployment gives 2 people a chance to screw up before line stretch. Both the jumper and the “jumpmaster”, for lack of a better word, should be experienced and have through understanding of the sequence.

Another version of a cutaway rig I have seen is adding “D” rings to a sport harness and hanging a chest mount on it. This adds a load point and potential load path to the harness that it was not designed for. Without doing some sewing to the harness it is almost impossible to attach “D” rings to the MLW securely, they are free to move up and down the MLW.

Even if a jumper has access to a “cutaway specific” rig I question the value of using one to “experience” what a real cutaway feels like. You will be hanging under a “good” canopy, have plenty of time to make your decision at a “safe” altitude. All your handles with right where they are supposed to be and you can see them. The canopy is not in a “malfunction”, spinning or whipping about. Everything is very calm.

This type of jump is required for TSO testing and I find that they feel just like using a hanging harness with 12 to 14 inch drop built in. Nothing like what happens when a canopy turns to shit in the real world. jmo

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,995]

>Even if a jumper has access to a “cutaway specific” rig I question the
> value of using one to “experience” what a real cutaway feels like.
> You will be hanging under a “good” canopy, have plenty of time to
> make your decision at a “safe” altitude. All your handles with right
> where they are supposed to be and you can see them. The canopy
> is not in a “malfunction”, spinning or whipping about. Everything is
> very calm.

So release one brake and ride it for a while before cutting away.

Even under a 'perfect' main, many jumpers may be suprised at how high the cutaway/reserve handles end up, and/or how much they move during the cutaway. They may not be expecting that it's very hard to get stable, or that it takes longer than they expect. Therein lies the value of the experience.

[Scrumpot 1]

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Cutaway system works the same as a regular rig then you deploy your main.

How can cutting away from a tertiary harness, (presumably) going back into freefall, then going for your main be "good practice" at all for the real thing?

I'd be extremely leary about this. Unless I've missed something entirely from your description of it, this sounds more to me like a one-man "Mr. Bill", and would in fact do nothing (maybe even LESS than nothing!) to reinforce good EP's, where muscle memory and PROPER PROCEDURES (read: cutaway, then pull RESERVE) are required. Practicing a cutaway followed by reaching for your BOC, to me, seems instead, rather counter to that, don't you think?

Might be "fun" and "interesting" (if I understand as described), but seriously nothing more than that!

Just another opinion.
Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[mjosparky 4]

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Cutaway system works the same as a regular rig then you deploy your main.

How can cutting away from a tertiary harness, (presumably) going back into freefall, then going for your main be "good practice" at all for the real thing?

I'd be extremely leary about this. Unless I've missed something entirely from your description of it, this sounds more to me like a one-man "Mr. Bill", and would in fact do nothing (maybe even LESS than nothing!) to reinforce good EP's, where muscle memory and PROPER PROCEDURES (read: cutaway, then pull RESERVE) are required. Practicing a cutaway followed by reaching for your BOC, to me, seems instead, rather counter to that, don't you think?

Might be "fun" and "interesting" (if I understand as described), but seriously nothing more than that!

Just another opinion.
Blues,
-Grant

Excellent point Grant. A well-engineered hanging harness would be more realistic without the added risk exposure.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 4]

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So release one brake and ride it for a while before cutting away.

Yep, that should do it.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tetra316 0]

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I think everyone who has access to an intentional cutaway rig should jump one regardless of experience.

That is a reckless statement. Intentional cutaways add more than just another layer of complexity to the jump. The risk of pilot error goes way up.

The rig you described sounds like it is deployed by someone holding the bag as the jumper exits. This type of deployment gives 2 people a chance to screw up before line stretch. Both the jumper and the “jumpmaster”, for lack of a better word, should be experienced and have through understanding of the sequence.

Another version of a cutaway rig I have seen is adding “D” rings to a sport harness and hanging a chest mount on it. This adds a load point and potential load path to the harness that it was not designed for. Without doing some sewing to the harness it is almost impossible to attach “D” rings to the MLW securely, they are free to move up and down the MLW.

Even if a jumper has access to a “cutaway specific” rig I question the value of using one to “experience” what a real cutaway feels like. You will be hanging under a “good” canopy, have plenty of time to make your decision at a “safe” altitude. All your handles with right where they are supposed to be and you can see them. The canopy is not in a “malfunction”, spinning or whipping about. Everything is very calm.

This type of jump is required for TSO testing and I find that they feel just like using a hanging harness with 12 to 14 inch drop built in. Nothing like what happens when a canopy turns to shit in the real world. jmo

Note I said this is something everyone should try WITH the proper briefing. And no a second person is NOT holding the canopy. It is attached to the harness you are wearing under your rig via the three ring system. The canopy is packed like normal and put into a paper bag in our case. It is deployed as soon as you exit by throwing the bag. Similar to deploying a belly reserve from the descriptions I've read. As for the "calm" part, induce a mal. Like billvon said release one brake only or spin it up. We were jumping a stilleto 97 so very easy to do. IMHO this is closer to the real thing than the hanging harness as you actually release the canopy, go back into freefall then deploy. Sure it's staged but so is the hanging harness. Of course only those with enough awareness(of the extra handles) should be trying this so I guess I don't see the harm....it's educational. Just like actually landing in a lake then getting out of your harness. Or at least thats my opinion.

[tetra316 0]

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How can cutting away from a tertiary harness, (presumably) going back into freefall, then going for your main be "good practice" at all for the real thing?

I think it's definitely better than nothing at all. I for one am glad that I did it as I know a little of what to expect when I actually experience a cutaway. Finding the handles which may not be in the same place, the sudden drop after you cutaway, trying to get stable (if altitude permits) and deploying another canopy. So you think nothing is better than something that may stimulate the real thing? Maybe it's not for everyone, probably shouldn't have stated that. Of course this is just my opinion.

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[mjosparky 4]

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I think everyone who has access to an intentional cutaway rig should jump one regardless of experience.

This is the statement I was referring to when I said reckless.

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The canopy is packed like normal and put into a paper bag in our case. It is deployed as soon as you exit by throwing the bag.

This type of deployment is definitely not for the less experienced jumper. Jumping a canopy in a “paper bag” can go to shit in a hurry. jmo

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Scrumpot 1]

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I think it's definitely better than nothing at all.

Just my opinion, but a properly constructed and (frequently) used (practiced with) hanging harness is MUCH better than this, and certainly is not "nothing at all". I also would NOT use this method in place of "nothing at all" either! It involves pulling handles in inappropriate sequence, and is certainly NOT for jumpers of "all skill levels and experience"!

I have done both (jumped one of these similar) and practiced in a hanging harness. I also practice my EP's on the ground before every jump, and again in the plane on jumprun. Every time. I have also had 2 "real" malfunctions and cut-aways. I can tell you from my experience that in order of efficacy (realism in preparation to/for the thing) that the practice experience of each of these methods in order of how well it compares is as follows:

1. The hanging harness
2. A leaning harness
3. Individual ground practice EP's
4. In-plane "handle-touch" EP's run-through
5. Tertiary harness (at least as this one is designed) cut-away.

I submit that #5 in fact, with the sytem designed as you have described, is nothing more than a "carnival ride" type thrill, and may in fact even be COUNTER productive. I say this because again, you are reaching for "wrong" handles in a "wrong" sequence, and therefore NOT reinforcing PROPER EP's at all.

A properly designed hanging harness (hooking your own gear up to it and using it from it at reserve repack time) and having someone further hanging from you from your legs for example, spinning and disorienting you all the while you then try to find YOUR OWN handles, in the proper order, and execute your EP's in proper sequence and in time, is by far and away THE BEST (and most realistic/close to an actual situation IMHO) practice and preparation you can have reasonably, far and away.

Even inducing a mal on your tertiary rig, then cutting it away, going back into freefall, THEN REACHING FOR YOUR BOC does nothing, again just IMHO to reinforce or prepare one for properly executing good EP's for the real thing at all.

I submit that instead this is giving you a false sense of "confidence", that I hope does not prove as a result to ever become actually even dangerous for you. - JMO.

Not trying to be right or wrong here. YMMV.
Just something to "think about" is all.

Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[fcajump 164]

As to experience level, the USPA does address this in the BSR's:

USPA SIM 2-1.J.2.
Pre-planned breakaway jumps are to be made by only class C- and D-license holders using FAA TSO'ed equipment. [E]

---------------
As to using this to simulate the actual emergency procedures, I thought it would do that for me... until I started doing them. The following OPINION is based on my own experiences:

My systems:
Standard sport rig, REHARNESSED with additional designed for and BUILT-IN base rings for the second set of risers and D-rings to mount the chest container. In MY system, the chest rig IS the first/cutaway canopy.

Chest containers:
1 - US mil system modified for throw-out, dual pin, D-bag, 3-ring risers and slider on a 24' round.
2 - Strong Pop-top system with only the risers changed out to standard 3-ring main risers.

Pro's:
The jumps have taught me a lot about system design, working with/jumping unusual equipment, how the strong pop-top system deploys*, how it feels to swim in 0 airspeed, what it feels like to open/fly a round, how far the harness can shift, etc... The system I use adds steps prior to my normal EP's, but does not change my EP's after the cut-away. It also allows me to stage several malfunctions to allow REAL failures, but again with different procedures than in an actual main 'function.

Con's:
The system I use does NOT make use of my normal EP's during the cutaway (no practice EPs here...)
It introduces new handles and procedures.
This system has me deploy on my back (fun but different).
Real failures on this system (staged or not) mean new EP's and new potential complications that must be anticipated and practiced for.

Overall:
This is NOT just another jump.
GREAT FUN for me, and most like to watch... but few step up to try it.
If I was looking to practice my ACTUAL EP's, a real chest reserve would be the way to go, but then you have the question of a non-releasable second 'chute and making use the handles are not covered.

Bottom Line for the question asked:
I think Srumpot (and others) are correct... a hanging harness setup with your own rig and an instructor working you through the EP's is probably best. The intentional will let you experience several things that come into play, but I'm not sure all the extra baggage that comes along wouldn't be counter productive to a younger jumper simply practicing his EP's.

If you want to do these, get with a rigger who has done them. They can be fun, but they can go very wrong very fast.

Blue ones,
Jim
~ 2 dozen 'chops on the system described.
2 real reserve rides (not during an intentional jump)

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Ron 10]

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I think everyone who has access to an intentional cutaway rig should jump one regardless of experience.

I know one very experienced jumper who is dead due to problems with an intentional cutaway rig.

Bad advice to recommend *anyone* at *any experience* level. It is a good idea for people who are pretty experienced and that go through a good training program before they use it.

I bet that if we had these rigs at every DZ, that more people who get killed using them.

Also your system is nowhere close to real. You go back into freefall and deploy the MAIN. That is not something you would ever do in real life. So while your system will provide someone the "cutaway" portion of the training, the "reserve" portion (I think the most important) is missing.

You version is fun, but not a real training aid since the procedures are totally different.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

If you can get a real 3 canopy system where the handles are close to normal...then it is a great training aid.

One version of this I saw was a 3rd canopy on a chest mount. You deployed a normal main, made it mal, then cutaway and deployed the normal reserve. If THAT mal'd, you deployed the chest mount.

The best version I have seen is Vectors system. But it has so many more handles than normal that they do not let just anyone jump it.

Strong has a rig that I have heard about.

All in all I would say that if you could get a 3 rig system that used the same procedures as a normal system that it would be a good idea.

Any other systems are just carnival rides and do not help train....And some of the deployment methods are just a bad idea.....Packing a canopy in a paper bag, holding it as you jump and then throwing it?!?!?!?!? It can be done, it does not mean it SHOULD be done.

It would suck to go from "fake" practice to real emergency due to getting caught up in your "main".

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[dragon2 2]

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One version of this I saw was a 3rd canopy on a chest mount. You deployed a normal main, made it mal, then cutaway and deployed the normal reserve. If THAT mal'd, you deployed the chest mount.

I did 2 jumps on such a system, no mals - induced or otherwise - on the mains though, and no mals on my reserves either
Had to change my reserve procedure from 2 hands to one per handle for these jumps though, because of the big chest mount that was in the way.

This extra "rig" system is what we use for the required cutaway for a new TI.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[billvon 2,995]

>If you can get a real 3 canopy system where the handles are close to
>normal...then it is a great training aid.

Agreed. The Vector system is about as close to "reality" as you can get, and is a good option for people who want a more realistic simulation of a 'real' mal and cutaway.

[JerryBaumchen 1,364]

Hi Ron,

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One version of this I saw was a 3rd canopy on a chest mount. You deployed a normal main, made it mal, then cutaway and deployed the normal reserve. If THAT mal'd, you deployed the chest mount.

Back in the '60's I did one with this configuration. I was testing a AAD for a piggyback system that I had built and 'needed' to get an actual in-the-air test under my belt.

I used a set of removeable D-rings (I think they may still be in the Para-Gear catalog). I just slipped them under the main lift web, snapped the chest strap on and tied it down by going behind my back & under the rig (at my back). This was a VERY poor setup and I knew that if I had a total and had to use the chest pack under those conditions I would probably be pretty bruised, lose some teeth, etc.

I wrote to PCA about doing it and Heaton about had a fit. He wrote back with all kinds of rules, reasons, etc why I could not do it.

I did it anyway and it went very well. A unique feeling to be doing it intentionally; can anyone say 'pucker factor?'. Later, when I had to do it for real it was like merely going from A to B to C . . . .

BTW, the main that I chopped from was an old military C-8; ever heard of one of them?

Jerry

PS) I sent you two photos of the Strong 3-canopy rig; hope that you get them.