Low / Flat turn education - AFF MISS?

[Para5-0 0]

"NO TURNS BELOW 500 FEET - PERIOD."

I teach No Hard turns below 200 Feet. Further we do discuss minor corrections from 200 until landing. It is empahsized, Minor toggle input to stay into the wind.

[pilotdave 0]

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Dave, you apparently learned at a DZ that didn't do too well on the traditional 7 level AFF program, but that does not mean it is "old" or "outdated".

USPA came out with something better. The old version IS outdated. I did a couple coach jumps before there was such a thing as a USPA coach. I don't think the DZ I learned at did so bad, for late 90s standards. But the "traditional" AFF program has the student pass 7 jumps and then they're on their own to learn, or not learn, anything else. I'm sure flat turns were covered at some point before I got my A license, but nothing like what students are learning now at dropzones that have adopted the ISP (and really teach it all).

I'm not talking about whether you call it category A or level 1. I'm talking about what happens after the basic survival skills are taught. If a dropzone teaches all that new stuff about canopy flight that didn't get taught in 1998, then they're doing their job. But if you're with an instructor for 7 jumps and then on your own until you have your A license, you're not learning all you need to know.

Dave

[peek 21]

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But the "traditional" AFF program has the student pass 7 jumps and then they're on their own to learn, or not learn, anything else.

Some places, of course, but there are places that still call it AFF, still call them "levels", do 7 of them with (an) AFF instructor(s), and then provide good instruction with the continuing coach jumps.

I'm really puzzled, because doesn't your statement below describe a DZ that trained well using this program?

"I couldn't believe it when one of the new jumpers mentioned that scott miller's course was just a refresher of what she learned in AFF."

And just in case you think the ISP is the end-all answer, I have seen a visiting students's (4 page ISP oriented) proficiency card that had done jumps up to about category F, and NONE of the equipment, spotting, canopy, or emergency review sections signed off.

None! And I bet that drop zone says they teach using the ISP.

It's all in the instruction, not in the name.

[pilotdave 0]

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I'm really puzzled, because doesn't your statement below describe a DZ that trained well using this program?

"I couldn't believe it when one of the new jumpers mentioned that scott miller's course was just a refresher of what she learned in AFF."

Ok, I think we're actually saying almost the exact same thing. The person I was describing above had gone through the full ISP. When she said that, I first thought she was nuts. Then it really hit me that her training (in 2005) was FAR different than the training I recieved. First jump courses haven't changed, but what she learned after her first 7 jumps to get her A license were things I learned over my first 200 jumps.

Again, I'm talking about the coach jumps. If students aren't being taught anything other than the first 7 levels, they're getting screwed. If a dropzone isn't teaching the skills on the 4 page card, they're not teaching the ISP no matter what they call it. I'm just comparing DZs that have and have not upgraded their student training to the current USPA-accepted best standards.

Training has improved amazingly since I finished AFF... at dropzones that have adopted the new training methods.

Dave

[kneepuff 0]

RB,

I'm so sorry to hear this happened but so glad that you are okay.

Since you and I took the AFF together and got the same instruction I am very interested in the responses here. Tne more I think about it and the more experience I get jumping the more I realize how much more there is to learn. Seems to me that the closer you get to the ground the more important the skill base is. Turning flips and maneuvering in freefall is a blast, but I sure wish I had more training on landing and everything that goes with approaching the landing.

I'll be looking into a canopy control class as soon as school gets out!

Good luck RB! See ya at the DZ!

Kneepuff
Girls just wanna have fuh hun!

[DHolland 0]

So i just finished my S/L training and i wasnt even taught no low turns, i was taught have enough altitude for your canopy to react and flatten out. I was asked what to do if i were at 75 feet and i was heading for a vineyard, i replied take what i had and prepare to PLF and land. I was quickly told that i was wrong and to turn away and land in a better spot. So i am kind of in the opposite situation and it seems we both trained at the same drop zone, just different instuctors i guess.

[OSOK 0]

Hmm, I don't mean to bash, but I think many have missed the obvious. If your profile is accurate, at 23 jumps, why were you jumping with a friend? Also, gusts usually come with strong winds. Were you even supposed to be in the air at all?

Just curious...

[stacie 0]

I had very similar experiences. I really wish AFF included more canopy skills. And at the very least, higher standards regarding canopy knowledge in order to acquire an A license. It wasn't until I cracked my tailbone on jump 47, that I decided to fix my own problem. I put myself back on the student radio until I got the opportunity to take a canopy course with Brian German. Since that course I have been able to get myself out of some ugly turbulence on final and land it comfortably on my feet. Meanwhile, I watch the others who have twice or three times my experience hit the ground pretty hard. My goal is to continue my canopy knowledge and hopefully within the next year a Scott Miller course will be within a closer proximity for me to attend. I'll also keep stressing the importance of learning canopy skills whenever I can.

Life is short. Live, laugh, love often!

[billvon 2,989]

> I really wish AFF included more canopy skills.

We do have a good program that covers skills like that - the ISP. It is often combined with AFF into an integrated student program (hence its name.) Pressure your DZ to implement this program! It's a good way to get canopy skills to newer jumpers.

[chrismgtis 0]

I think Scott Miller's course should be required for a B license. Or a course like it.

I took it this past weekend and I was surprised how much I learned. Not just in the classroom, but under canopy. I don't think I would have gained that much insight into canopy control in the next 300 jumps as I did in those 3 and the others I made this weekend using what I was taught.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[billvon 2,989]

> I think Scott Miller's course should be required for a B license. Or a course like it.

So start one! There is such a course in the SIM (section 6-11) that can be run by any instructor/good canopy pilot.

[chrismgtis 0]

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>So start one! There is such a course in the SIM (section 6-11) that can be run by any instructor/good canopy pilot.

I'm not the instructor type. Maybe I will change my mind in another 4000 jumps.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[riggerrob 643]

This gets into a gray area.

We try to limit first jump course material to "must knows," but add additional information in - small doses - during subsequent jumps.

By eleven jumps, you should have been taught enough about planning landing approaches (i.e. thinking a minute ahead of your canopy) that you never find yourself low over vineyards.

Similarly, by eleven jumps, you should already be practicing half-brake turns - up high - as an alternative to toggle-whipping at low altitude.

[billvon 2,989]

>I'm not the instructor type.

Yeah, but most DZ's have a few spare ones. Print out the syllabus, give it to them and ask them to run it.

[kmfenaughty 0]

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This gets into a gray area.

We try to limit first jump course material to "must knows," but add additional information in - small doses - during subsequent jumps.

By eleven jumps, you should have been taught enough about planning landing approaches (i.e. thinking a minute ahead of your canopy) that you never find yourself low over vineyards.

Similarly, by eleven jumps, you should already be practicing half-brake turns - up high - as an alternative to toggle-whipping at low altitude.

I have a complete respect for any and all instructors out there .. especially the ones teaching AFF, I can't imagine what it feels like to let go of the student the first time knowing what MAY be ahead of hin/her in the jump ... clearly they (instructors) don't do it for the money or the glory

However ... I do get a little dissiapointed when they don't assign some "home work". I was totally amazed at the detailed instruction provided in the Skydive University - Basic Canopy Flight video / manual. This should be absloutley REQUIRED reading. This video spends a significant amount of time going over flat turns and flying in brakes, landing approach and setup.

Those first couple of jumps are tough ... with all that has to be covered in the AFF class itself there would be a total information overload trying to cover all that material but ... I was lucky enough to get a copy of this video when I bought my first rig.

I'm going through AFF class now .. and on a "medical hold" cause I screwed up the landing ... TOTALLY MY MISTAKE and no reflection on the quality or throughness of the instructiors ... I just screwed up

I'm at the point now when I'm just begining to realize how much I really don't know ... and how much experience and skill it takes to perform one of the "High Performance Landings" that make the canopy scream as you come around for a landing

The up side is this hold has allowed me some time to read and go through some of this material.

Now when I look back at my bad landing ... I realize a lot more about what went wrong and how NOT to get into that situation in the future. It has also taught me what to look for when I'm doing all those "Pratice Flares" at 3k. Now I think I can begin to relate that into the flare when I land

Another good video is "Fly like a PRO" with John LeBlanc (Performance Design) .. where he teaches you how to find exactly where you are headed and if you will overshoot or fall short and how to adjust your canopy flight ....

There's not enough time during the AFF Ground School .... but these training videos are very good.

I wish more instructors would push them to the students .. post of the AFF ground class / 1st jump, it's really helped me understand more about what I was doing wrong in my landings and how to CORRECT it

99% of the people on this earth are sheep ... dare to be different

[Ms.sofaking 0]

This is something I believe after my first jump my instructors changed the way they stressed NO LOW TURNS UNDER 500!
Before getting on the plane my instructor and I discussed this. He did say if you are going to hit an obstacle you can make small corrective turns.

At 1000 on my down wind I lost radio contact. I went long. Now at roughly 500 feet everyone is screaming "LEFT TURN!!" I turn left.Now under 500 feet on my base leg I am heading straight for a building. The screams get louder"LEFT TURN!! LEFT TURN!!! I pull ever so slightly (about a 1/2 inch) on my left toggle. Nothing. All I know is people die from low turns. I pick my feet up to get over a parked plane and then stick them out and flare as I smash into the building and fall to the concrete below.

My husband then told me how to do flat turns and to practice them up high. My next jump I did this enough, that I was comfortable doing this low. I shortly there after got myself in a position(my fault) where I needed this skill at '50 and used it comfortably and sucessfully.
I think it should be taught. Instead of just randomly pulling on toggles to see what the canopy does up high. I think flat turns are the first thing a student should be practicing. A student pulls high and has plenty of altitude to work on this. I had flat turns down pretty well in one jump. Whenever I jump a different canopy it is still something I practice on my first jump with it.
I think "small corrective turns" needs to be elaborated on. Remember your student typically has never flown a canopy before.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[kneepuff 0]

We didn't use radios in my AFF training. I think this would have helped me find the proper flare point for my landings...

Kneepuff
Girls just wanna have fuh hun!

[diablopilot 2]

Radios are a crutch.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,989]

> Radios are a crutch.

So are big canopies, and AFF instructors, and AAD's, and helmets, and PLF's. But all those things help people get to the point where they can skydive safely without them (if they choose to do so.) Which, of course, is why we use them.

[diablopilot 2]

I meant Radios are a crutch for AFF instructors who are unwilling to invest the time and energy in training their studnets correctly.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DSE 5]

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I meant Radios are a crutch for AFF instructors who are unwilling to invest the time and energy in training their studnets correctly.

I'm confused. Are you advocating non-use of radio in favor of..? (paddles, flags? Some other indicator, or nothing at all?)

[diablopilot 2]

I mean I see too many AFF instructors giving turn by turn commands to AFF students from the 1st jump through Cat's E, F, G.....etc.

Studensts should be capable of landing with no assistance what so ever. I mean batteries fail, radios are left off, reception is spotty........

Too many are using them as a crutch.

I tell each of my students I'll check in with them after I land, and then only give corrections if they are not flying their plan. I also try to get them to give up the radio by their 4th jump or so.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,989]

>I tell each of my students I'll check in with them after I land, and
>then only give corrections if they are not flying their plan. I also try to get
>them to give up the radio by their 4th jump or so.

I give them turn-by-turn on their first jump so they get a good pattern "set" in their minds. After that I give progressively less help. By their fourth jump I tell them I'm only going to talk to them if they're going to do something dangerous, and generally they're off radio by jump 5.

[DSE 5]

Gotcha. I'm not yet an AFF I, but working towards that as a goal.
Once saw a situation where a radio failed, and student did not follow what he'd been taught (I was standing next to instructor as instructor continued to give directions, radio worked when student was up high, but somehow the volume was turned down as he began his downwind) and the student had a nasty landing, and suffered minor injuries as a result.
It was the student's final AFF jump and he should have been aware of what he was doing. Perhaps he was so dependent on the radio that he was waiting for instructions to turn. I don't know, but it was odd to see him continue downwind when not only was the instructor telling him what to do over the dead radio, but he'd landed this pattern several times previously. He couldn't explain why he didn't follow the pattern he'd used in previous landings. I'll guess he was waiting for radio instruction.