jfields 0 #51 July 9, 2002 Clay, Think of all the boobies you would miss if you burned in early. "Buy a Cypres - See More Boobies" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #52 July 9, 2002 > I guess my only regret there would be to my friends at the DZ. I don't want them to have to go through that but personally I don't give a rats ass. What would your son have to say about if you die to a no pull but if you had a Cypres it would have saved you?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #53 July 9, 2002 Really the main people I worry about are those who won't make even one jump without a Cypres. Whether its a solo hop and pop or whatever. If on this jump you concetrate hard on not hitting the airplane on exit, its a solo hop and pop, etc - people are still too scared to do it. That worries me and makes me really wonder if they actually trust themselves to do their emergency procedures properly. I own 4 rigs. I'm a CRWdog. I've had 12 reserve rides. One rig is exclusively for CRW - I'll never ever ever put a Cypres in there (a misfire would kill me - and yes, Brad was a friend of mine. And I'd bet money that if he were still alive, he'd just be more cautious about how he exited and he still wouldn't put a Cypres in his CRW rig.) I've got one Power Racer which if I put a Cypres in it would make the pop-top stick out too much and it would be dangerous for me during CRW or at other times. That leaves me with 2 rigs I could put a Cypres in. Quite likely I will put a Cypres in one of them within the next year. I don't jump either one of them much however so I'm not particularly concerned. A Cypres is similar to a life-insurance policy - but its a matter of degree. I mean, most people wouldn't pay a $1000 a year for a policy against a lightning strike, or maybe one for being run over by a dump truck. I just think its extremely unlikely that I'm ever going to need one. I very well may die skydiving, but I'd make a bet of a large amount of money it'll be from a CRW wrap or a bad landing or a main/reserve entanglement or something else. I've got 3000 jumps and have never even been slightly dizzy or really hit even vaguely hard in freefall. I used to have a Cypres. I sold it back when I got heavily into CRW. What I found out about myself is that afterward I was backing out of loads I previously would have gone on. I was more concerned about safety and zoomies. I'm much more conservative now than I was when I had a Cypres. And I truly was not aware of that fact when I had one. I had no idea I was doing skydives that I wouldn't have done without a Cypres. And it seems to me that if you wouldn't do the skydive without a Cypres, perhaps you should rethink doing the skydive with one. You can be killed by a hard hit in freefall with or without a Cypres. People tend to forget that. Be more conservative and if you wouldn't make a particular jump without a Cypres, you probably shouldn't be doing it with one. W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #54 July 9, 2002 QuoteWhat would your son have to say about if you die to a no pull but if you had a Cypres it would have saved you? He would probably say "WOOHOO!!!! I'm one rich bastard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I have a decent life insurance policy..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeatlast 0 #55 July 9, 2002 "if you wouldn't make a particular jump without a Cypres, you probably shouldn't be doing it with one." What a crock of macho SH*T ... I wouldn't do a jump without my cypres as a rule but it doesn't make me a bad or unsafe jumper .... How can you post such a patronising statement .... ??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #56 July 9, 2002 QuoteWhat a crock of macho SH*T ... I wouldn't do a jump without my cypres as a rule but it doesn't make me a bad or unsafe jumper .... How can you post such a patronising statement .... ??? That's absolutely not a crock of of macho SH*T. It's the truth. The idea being that if you expect a jump to be so dangerous that you feel you need a Cypres you shouldn't be on that jump in the first place. Get it? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #57 July 9, 2002 QuoteWhat a crock of macho SH*T ... I wouldn't do a jump without my cypres as a rule but it doesn't make me a bad or unsafe jumper .... Whoooaaa Nelly, I don't think he is saying that at all. He is trying t get accross, imho, that one should not rely on a cypres to save you. The thought process of, if things go wrong my cypres will save me, should not enter your mind. Just as most people do not think that they can drive whatever way they want and if things go wrong their seatbelt or airbag will save them........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #58 July 9, 2002 Wendy, People who depend on a Cypres no matter what and have never jumped without one may need to do some re-evaluating. I agree with that. I won't jump without one *as long as it lowers my probable risk*. Which for me has been 100% of the time, so far. Although I haven't done CRW, my (minimal) understanding leads me to think that having a Cypres active on a CRW jump would have more potential risk than reward. If I were to do CRW, I'd turn it off. You bring up a perfectly valid example of when it isn't suitable. When people get so dependent on it and get the mindset of "Cypres=Safe", it is a bad thing. As long as people continue evaluating the pros and cons in a rational, educated way, the choice should be up to each person. Your Cypres-Insurance analogy is good. Each person decides what they need. I don't think I'll die skydiving, but I did go out and buy a term life policy that specifically includes skydiving. I pay a premium for it, but I'm thinking of my family and the unlikely (but non-zero) chance that I die in a jump-related incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeatlast 0 #59 July 9, 2002 No, you're assuming that I expect the jump to be dangerous ... What I am saying (like many others) is that if I can lower the risks associated with almost any type of jump (solo or big-way) then I am happier to lower those risks ... We all accept the element of risk in this sport (else we shouldn't do it) but some prefer to try and ensure that we are as safe as reasonably possible. I guess we will differ on this one ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #60 July 9, 2002 QuoteNo, you're assuming that I expect the jump to be dangerous ... What I am saying (like many others) is that if I can lower the risks associated with almost any type of jump (solo or big-way) then I am happier to lower those risks ... I'm not assuming anything. It seems though that you are assuming that Wendy's comment was directed at you and you alone. I think you missed the point. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #61 July 9, 2002 Quote"if you wouldn't make a particular jump without a Cypres, you probably shouldn't be doing it with one." What a crock of macho SH*T ... I wouldn't do a jump without my cypres as a rule but it doesn't make me a bad or unsafe jumper .... Why? If its a freefly jump where you think you're liable to get clobbered, maybe that person should be doing a solo if they don't have the control. If its an 8-way and you think someone might swoop into you, maybe they shouldn't be in that 8 way. I understand a lot of people view it as a backup. But I see a lot of people who do jumps with zoomies and people are out of control because they have a Cypres "just in case." It would be better to make that skydive a 2-way instead of an 8-way where you can watch them and stay out of their way. tThe better plan would be doing a solo or a 2-way freefly jump for example instead of that 4-way if your skill levels aren't there. The part that worries me about some people and Cypreses is that they don't take the steps to ensure their safety in the planning of the dives. That's the most important step to safety. I'm one of the more conservative jumpers when it comes to safety in a lot of ways. But I don't jump with a Cypres (though I have no problem doing freefall with one in the appropriate rig.) I've lost 30+ friends at least now in this sport. Of those people, I can think of 1 whom a Cypres might have helped, and most likely it wouldn't have helped him either other than delivering a better looking corpse. Too many people use a Cypres as a rationale for doing unsafe skydives. Not everyone certainly. But some. Especiallly the ones in the 100-500 jump range it seems who are confident in the sport yet haven't had friends die yet. Those are the ones that I worry about most. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JDBoston 0 #62 July 9, 2002 I don't think wearing seatbelts "dumbs down" drivers. It's just that there's no good reason NOT to wear one. Now, if I was driving around rear-ending people and stuff because I knew my seatbelt and airbags would probably save me, that's a different story. And I know I'm perfectly capable of driving around safely without a seatbelt if I want to. But I take at least as much pride in being smart as I do in being able to skydive, and I would feel like a real dumbass if I made a Joe-shaped crater somewhere simply because I chose not to jump with a proven piece of safety equipment, whose presence & functioning has absolutely no impact on what I can and can't do while skydiving, or how much fun I have. The Cypres isn't there so I can feel safer and pay less attention to doing things right. It's there for situations I can't always predict or control - like getting knocked out - where the difference between having one and not having one becomes somewhat more important than it may seem the rest of the time. Just my $0.02. Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bloodyrog 0 #63 July 9, 2002 Well, I'm not really anti-Cypres. I know they make things safer, and I think one day I'll get myself one too. By the way, jumping with one just for the sake of your wife's peace of mind is a good reason. What I cannot accept is the attitude of some experienced jumpers: "I will _never_ (on principle) jump without an AAD". For the reasons stated I find it inconsistent and incompatible with this sport. Rog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #64 July 9, 2002 I won't jump without one *as long as it lowers my probable risk*. Which for me has been 100% of the time, so far. Although I haven't done CRW, my (minimal) understanding leads me to think that having a Cypres active on a CRW jump would have more potential risk than reward. If I were to do CRW, I'd turn it off. You bring up a perfectly valid example of when it isn't suitable. Ok - question for you. You're doing a solo hop and pop. You try really hard and make damn sure you don't hit your head on exit. The only way a Cypres will help you is if a. you have a sudden heart attack in the 2 seconds out the door rendering you unable to pull b. you don't follow emergency procedures correctly. I know people who are 20 years old (pretty dang unlikely to have that suddent incapacitating medical problem) who won't do a hop and pop without one. I can't fathom how a Cypres is lowering their risk (assuming they are careful leaving the airplane) other than saving them if they can't do their emergency procedures. And if I were them, instead of relying on the Cypres to help them with emergency procedures, I'd put myself in a hanging harness and practice those procedures for hours on end until I have confidence. If you can think of some way having a Cypres lowers your risk on a jump like that other than helping you if you brain-lock, please let me know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeatlast 0 #65 July 9, 2002 No, I don't think the post was directed at me ... I don't think I've met many of the postees You are right, if someone isn't up to that jump they shouldn't be doing it ... and I understand that may be the mentality of some to go beyond their abilities because they are wearing a cypres and they think it will save them in all situations. Of course that type of person becomes a liability for everyone else around them. But choosing to use an added safety device that generally doesn't interfere with anyone else's enjoyment of the skies doesn't make you a worse skydiver either ... I am never angry if someone buys a car with or without ABS or Airbags!!! Complacency is certainly a dangerous thing but having a cypres doesn't necessarily make you complacent... Nor does choosing to use or not use a cypres make you a better or worse skydiver .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jfields 0 #66 July 9, 2002 QuoteIf you can think of some way having a Cypres lowers your risk on a jump like that other than helping you if you brain-lock, please let me know. Wendy, I think part of the difference in our opinions is your thousands of jumps versus my 78. It has been a long time since you have had as little experience as I have now. I haven't ever had a reserve ride. I do practice my emergency procedures, so I hope I won't brain-lock. While I *believe* I will pull silver when the time comes, I don't *know* for a fact. You wanted me to let you know if I came up with a way a Cypres lowers my risk on a hop and pop other than in case of brain-lock. Isn't that enough of a reason for a newbie like me, at least until I *know* I'll pull silver? Thanks for keeping the conversation civil, as they seem to often deteriorate when discusing Cypres. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #67 July 9, 2002 Wait...why is "brain-locking" not a good reason for having one? I'm sorry, there isn't a person on the face of the earth except maybe Chuck Yeager that doesn't brain lock at some point. Remember, Jan Davis brain locked on where her pilot chute was located. Why? Distraction. Distraction from the situation. We are ALL suceptible to this. We are human. I'm a trained airline pilot. I think I've proven that I'm all about safety and proper training and thinking through problems before they occur. But I also recognize that we are fallible human beings and that by adding a Cypres to my rig I have added a level of safety that was not there before. A Cypres can't land me. It can't make me flare. But just because it doesn't do EVERYTHING is no excuse to not have one. Well...Capwells cutaway canopies years ago. Why should anyone have changed their release mechanism to the three-ring release? They both released your main. You wouldn't jump a rig with Capewell's now would you (all people in general)? So why, if we have the technological advancement to do it, would you choose to not install a proven safety device?Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #68 July 9, 2002 QuoteDistraction. Distraction from the situation. We are ALL suceptible to this. We are human. I got a bloody nose in freefall once. When my goggles were covered with blood and I couldn't see anything it was pretty damned distracting. Especially since I didn't know I had a nose bleed or why I suddenly couldn't see. Fortunately it happened high, I knew I was at about 9 grand and knew I had at least a few seconds to flip off the goggles so I could see. Otherwise I would have dumped. Now imagine if that happened when I was at pull time, I'm blind, my protrack is screaming in my ear, I know the ground is close, I'm panicked and in that state can't find my hackey and grab frantically for it until I bounce. I don't think I'd panic like that and am almost 100% positive that I'd be fine in that situation. But the bottom line is...you never know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #69 July 9, 2002 QuoteI'm blind, my protrack is screaming in my ear, I know the ground is close, I'm panicked and in that state can't find my hackey and grab frantically for it Try once, try twice, pull the reserve handle...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #70 July 9, 2002 >Remember, Jan Davis brain locked on where her pilot chute was located. Actually... on video Jan was reaching but unable to pull, her shoulder had most likely popped out of place again so it would have mattered where it was. >You wouldn't jump a rig with Capewell's now would you (all people in general)? As long as they are not wired shut.... I'd jump them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #71 July 9, 2002 But I also recognize that we are fallible human beings and that by adding a Cypres to my rig I have added a level of safety that was not there before. A Cypres can't land me. It can't make me flare. But just because it doesn't do EVERYTHING is no excuse to not have one. Don't get me wrong - I don't have a problem with people jumping a Cypres, I'll probably get one in at least one of my 4 rigs before the year is out. But what worries me is that even on the most basic, generic, trivial skydives, people act like not jumping with a Cypres is akin to trying to kill yourself. I know numerous highly experienced jumpers who jumped without them for years and now own them. I have no problem with that. I just worry about the new generation of jumpers who seem to think that jumping without one is as crazy as jumping without a reserve. 99.9999% of skydivers will eventually need to use their reserve. 99.9999% of skydivers will never have a Cypres fire when they're unconscious. All the ones I've witnessed were from low pulls and they all resulted in double deployments. If you read some of the save reports on Airtec's web site - you'll understand why people worry. Numerous people waited for the Cypres, or pulled on something it didn't work so they gave up. One guy died because he exited below Cypres activation altitude and didn't handle the situation right. This kid told his friends that if the Cypres didn't exist he wouldn't be jumping because he didn't think he could handle it. Its that kind of attitude which scares me. The point I try to make to newbies is that if you think you might get knocked out on a skydive, change the frigging skydive. Make it a smaller group, more experienced people and less newbies or whatever. But if you go up on a skydive thinking "it'll be ok, I've got a Cypres" I'll worry like crazy about you. If you plan smart on the ground, the odds of ever needing the thing goes way down. But not enough people do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dumpster 0 #72 July 9, 2002 Several folks reading this thread have asked me to post the circumstances regarding my AAD fire- So here goes- Jump number 15 on a static-line progression - Tracking was the last task on the jump, and this was the first time for me to actually track. around six grand I turned, began to track and got unstable in a head-down, spinning, tumbling I-don't-know-what-the-hell-is-going-on situation- thinking "I have to get stable before I pull-"after what I THOUGHT was just a very few seconds, I arched like a sumbitch and WHAM - Reserve is out over my head- (at about 1200' I think-) So I was unstable, disoriented, unaware of my altitude etc. etc-- All kinds of bad shit- I was just a few seconds away from impact- just a few seconds from leaving three of the worlds greatest kids orphans, leaving my wonderful wife a widow, just a few seconds away from the ultimate reality check- I PERSONALLY OWE MY LIFE TO AN AAD! That's my personal endorsement for AAD's lots of other stuff- Won't go into it here- I have read lots of "I know some one who would still be alive if he had an AAD" stories-- Now you can say "I know of some one who is STILL alive because he DID have an AAD". For what it's worth to y'all--- BLUE SKIES!!!!! (and COLD BEER!) C-YA! -Lenny Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #73 July 9, 2002 >We all accept the element of risk in this sport (else we shouldn't do > it) but some prefer to try and ensure that we are as safe as > reasonably possible. About eight years ago a jumper was killed when he relied on his cypres to do something that it could not do (save him when he bailed out of an aircraft at 1000 feet.) He had told his friends that he would not be jumping without a cypres, since he was not confident that he could perform his emergency procedures correctly. He in fact could not, and he died. Had he not been using a cypres, he would be alive today since he would have (wisely) stayed on the ground. This is an example of someone who made a jump they should not have made because the cypres made them feel just safe enough to do it. If there are people like that in the sport, their cypreses are greatly increasing their risk by allowing them to jump in situations they should not. If you doubt that happens, go to a boogie and see if you hear the phrase "hey, that's why I have a cypres." Again, my acid test is asking someone if they are willing to make just one jump under the safest possible conditions with their cypres off. If they cannot or will not, it's likely that they are depending too much on their cypres, and would be safer fixing the thing that worries them rather than simply relying on a cypres. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #74 July 9, 2002 QuoteIsn't that enough of a reason for a newbie like me, at least until I *know* I'll pull silver? If you aren't confident that you'll "pull silver" when needed... perhaps more time practicing emergency procedures is indicated. I've never had to cutaway in 900 jumps; I'm very confident that I can and will pull the handles in the correct order when I need to, just like I was confident that I could pull the main ripcord on my first freefall. If I wasn't _that sure_ of my ability to handle a malfunction and save my own life, I wouldn't be skydiving. I had two reasons for finally getting a Cypres. First was my plan to do as many large RW formations as possible this year - these type of skydives put me at more risk for a freefall collision. The second reason was simply so I could go jump at a DZ that requires a Cypres on every jumpers rig. I did not add a Cypres to my rig so I could not worry about how I will react in an emergency situation. imho the only excuse for _my_ Cypres to fire is that somehow I wasn't there (ie unconcious). If it ever goes off and I'm awake and aware... the rig is for sale and I'm buying a bowling ball and a pair of those cool shoes. Here's a question for those of you who won't jump without one. Let's say you were in a hurry to get to the plane for a first jump of the day and you realize at 1200' on the way up that you forgot to turn your Cypres on. Whatcha gonna do? Ride the plane down? Or go ahead and do the skydive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #75 July 9, 2002 >I'm a trained airline pilot. I think I've proven that I'm all about > safety and proper training and thinking through problems before > they occur. Agreed, and no machine (TCAS, GPWS, stick pushers in aircraft or cypreses/RSLs on skydiving rigs) can replace proper training and relevant experience. >Well...Capwells cutaway canopies years ago. Why should anyone > have changed their release mechanism to the three-ring release? > They both released your main. Would you apply the same argument to the Airbus style of fly by wire? I don't know what you fly, but the Airbus scheme of keeping the pilot a bit out of the loop is no doubt more technologically advanced - after all, there's no reason you should need to ever bank an A340 past 60 degrees, so the computer should not allow you to. Does that make Airbuses safer overall? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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JDBoston 0 #62 July 9, 2002 I don't think wearing seatbelts "dumbs down" drivers. It's just that there's no good reason NOT to wear one. Now, if I was driving around rear-ending people and stuff because I knew my seatbelt and airbags would probably save me, that's a different story. And I know I'm perfectly capable of driving around safely without a seatbelt if I want to. But I take at least as much pride in being smart as I do in being able to skydive, and I would feel like a real dumbass if I made a Joe-shaped crater somewhere simply because I chose not to jump with a proven piece of safety equipment, whose presence & functioning has absolutely no impact on what I can and can't do while skydiving, or how much fun I have. The Cypres isn't there so I can feel safer and pay less attention to doing things right. It's there for situations I can't always predict or control - like getting knocked out - where the difference between having one and not having one becomes somewhat more important than it may seem the rest of the time. Just my $0.02. Joe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bloodyrog 0 #63 July 9, 2002 Well, I'm not really anti-Cypres. I know they make things safer, and I think one day I'll get myself one too. By the way, jumping with one just for the sake of your wife's peace of mind is a good reason. What I cannot accept is the attitude of some experienced jumpers: "I will _never_ (on principle) jump without an AAD". For the reasons stated I find it inconsistent and incompatible with this sport. Rog Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #64 July 9, 2002 I won't jump without one *as long as it lowers my probable risk*. Which for me has been 100% of the time, so far. Although I haven't done CRW, my (minimal) understanding leads me to think that having a Cypres active on a CRW jump would have more potential risk than reward. If I were to do CRW, I'd turn it off. You bring up a perfectly valid example of when it isn't suitable. Ok - question for you. You're doing a solo hop and pop. You try really hard and make damn sure you don't hit your head on exit. The only way a Cypres will help you is if a. you have a sudden heart attack in the 2 seconds out the door rendering you unable to pull b. you don't follow emergency procedures correctly. I know people who are 20 years old (pretty dang unlikely to have that suddent incapacitating medical problem) who won't do a hop and pop without one. I can't fathom how a Cypres is lowering their risk (assuming they are careful leaving the airplane) other than saving them if they can't do their emergency procedures. And if I were them, instead of relying on the Cypres to help them with emergency procedures, I'd put myself in a hanging harness and practice those procedures for hours on end until I have confidence. If you can think of some way having a Cypres lowers your risk on a jump like that other than helping you if you brain-lock, please let me know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeatlast 0 #65 July 9, 2002 No, I don't think the post was directed at me ... I don't think I've met many of the postees You are right, if someone isn't up to that jump they shouldn't be doing it ... and I understand that may be the mentality of some to go beyond their abilities because they are wearing a cypres and they think it will save them in all situations. Of course that type of person becomes a liability for everyone else around them. But choosing to use an added safety device that generally doesn't interfere with anyone else's enjoyment of the skies doesn't make you a worse skydiver either ... I am never angry if someone buys a car with or without ABS or Airbags!!! Complacency is certainly a dangerous thing but having a cypres doesn't necessarily make you complacent... Nor does choosing to use or not use a cypres make you a better or worse skydiver .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jfields 0 #66 July 9, 2002 QuoteIf you can think of some way having a Cypres lowers your risk on a jump like that other than helping you if you brain-lock, please let me know. Wendy, I think part of the difference in our opinions is your thousands of jumps versus my 78. It has been a long time since you have had as little experience as I have now. I haven't ever had a reserve ride. I do practice my emergency procedures, so I hope I won't brain-lock. While I *believe* I will pull silver when the time comes, I don't *know* for a fact. You wanted me to let you know if I came up with a way a Cypres lowers my risk on a hop and pop other than in case of brain-lock. Isn't that enough of a reason for a newbie like me, at least until I *know* I'll pull silver? Thanks for keeping the conversation civil, as they seem to often deteriorate when discusing Cypres. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diverdriver 5 #67 July 9, 2002 Wait...why is "brain-locking" not a good reason for having one? I'm sorry, there isn't a person on the face of the earth except maybe Chuck Yeager that doesn't brain lock at some point. Remember, Jan Davis brain locked on where her pilot chute was located. Why? Distraction. Distraction from the situation. We are ALL suceptible to this. We are human. I'm a trained airline pilot. I think I've proven that I'm all about safety and proper training and thinking through problems before they occur. But I also recognize that we are fallible human beings and that by adding a Cypres to my rig I have added a level of safety that was not there before. A Cypres can't land me. It can't make me flare. But just because it doesn't do EVERYTHING is no excuse to not have one. Well...Capwells cutaway canopies years ago. Why should anyone have changed their release mechanism to the three-ring release? They both released your main. You wouldn't jump a rig with Capewell's now would you (all people in general)? So why, if we have the technological advancement to do it, would you choose to not install a proven safety device?Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #68 July 9, 2002 QuoteDistraction. Distraction from the situation. We are ALL suceptible to this. We are human. I got a bloody nose in freefall once. When my goggles were covered with blood and I couldn't see anything it was pretty damned distracting. Especially since I didn't know I had a nose bleed or why I suddenly couldn't see. Fortunately it happened high, I knew I was at about 9 grand and knew I had at least a few seconds to flip off the goggles so I could see. Otherwise I would have dumped. Now imagine if that happened when I was at pull time, I'm blind, my protrack is screaming in my ear, I know the ground is close, I'm panicked and in that state can't find my hackey and grab frantically for it until I bounce. I don't think I'd panic like that and am almost 100% positive that I'd be fine in that situation. But the bottom line is...you never know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflir29 0 #69 July 9, 2002 QuoteI'm blind, my protrack is screaming in my ear, I know the ground is close, I'm panicked and in that state can't find my hackey and grab frantically for it Try once, try twice, pull the reserve handle...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #70 July 9, 2002 >Remember, Jan Davis brain locked on where her pilot chute was located. Actually... on video Jan was reaching but unable to pull, her shoulder had most likely popped out of place again so it would have mattered where it was. >You wouldn't jump a rig with Capewell's now would you (all people in general)? As long as they are not wired shut.... I'd jump them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites faulknerwn 38 #71 July 9, 2002 But I also recognize that we are fallible human beings and that by adding a Cypres to my rig I have added a level of safety that was not there before. A Cypres can't land me. It can't make me flare. But just because it doesn't do EVERYTHING is no excuse to not have one. Don't get me wrong - I don't have a problem with people jumping a Cypres, I'll probably get one in at least one of my 4 rigs before the year is out. But what worries me is that even on the most basic, generic, trivial skydives, people act like not jumping with a Cypres is akin to trying to kill yourself. I know numerous highly experienced jumpers who jumped without them for years and now own them. I have no problem with that. I just worry about the new generation of jumpers who seem to think that jumping without one is as crazy as jumping without a reserve. 99.9999% of skydivers will eventually need to use their reserve. 99.9999% of skydivers will never have a Cypres fire when they're unconscious. All the ones I've witnessed were from low pulls and they all resulted in double deployments. If you read some of the save reports on Airtec's web site - you'll understand why people worry. Numerous people waited for the Cypres, or pulled on something it didn't work so they gave up. One guy died because he exited below Cypres activation altitude and didn't handle the situation right. This kid told his friends that if the Cypres didn't exist he wouldn't be jumping because he didn't think he could handle it. Its that kind of attitude which scares me. The point I try to make to newbies is that if you think you might get knocked out on a skydive, change the frigging skydive. Make it a smaller group, more experienced people and less newbies or whatever. But if you go up on a skydive thinking "it'll be ok, I've got a Cypres" I'll worry like crazy about you. If you plan smart on the ground, the odds of ever needing the thing goes way down. But not enough people do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dumpster 0 #72 July 9, 2002 Several folks reading this thread have asked me to post the circumstances regarding my AAD fire- So here goes- Jump number 15 on a static-line progression - Tracking was the last task on the jump, and this was the first time for me to actually track. around six grand I turned, began to track and got unstable in a head-down, spinning, tumbling I-don't-know-what-the-hell-is-going-on situation- thinking "I have to get stable before I pull-"after what I THOUGHT was just a very few seconds, I arched like a sumbitch and WHAM - Reserve is out over my head- (at about 1200' I think-) So I was unstable, disoriented, unaware of my altitude etc. etc-- All kinds of bad shit- I was just a few seconds away from impact- just a few seconds from leaving three of the worlds greatest kids orphans, leaving my wonderful wife a widow, just a few seconds away from the ultimate reality check- I PERSONALLY OWE MY LIFE TO AN AAD! That's my personal endorsement for AAD's lots of other stuff- Won't go into it here- I have read lots of "I know some one who would still be alive if he had an AAD" stories-- Now you can say "I know of some one who is STILL alive because he DID have an AAD". For what it's worth to y'all--- BLUE SKIES!!!!! (and COLD BEER!) C-YA! -Lenny Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #73 July 9, 2002 >We all accept the element of risk in this sport (else we shouldn't do > it) but some prefer to try and ensure that we are as safe as > reasonably possible. About eight years ago a jumper was killed when he relied on his cypres to do something that it could not do (save him when he bailed out of an aircraft at 1000 feet.) He had told his friends that he would not be jumping without a cypres, since he was not confident that he could perform his emergency procedures correctly. He in fact could not, and he died. Had he not been using a cypres, he would be alive today since he would have (wisely) stayed on the ground. This is an example of someone who made a jump they should not have made because the cypres made them feel just safe enough to do it. If there are people like that in the sport, their cypreses are greatly increasing their risk by allowing them to jump in situations they should not. If you doubt that happens, go to a boogie and see if you hear the phrase "hey, that's why I have a cypres." Again, my acid test is asking someone if they are willing to make just one jump under the safest possible conditions with their cypres off. If they cannot or will not, it's likely that they are depending too much on their cypres, and would be safer fixing the thing that worries them rather than simply relying on a cypres. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #74 July 9, 2002 QuoteIsn't that enough of a reason for a newbie like me, at least until I *know* I'll pull silver? If you aren't confident that you'll "pull silver" when needed... perhaps more time practicing emergency procedures is indicated. I've never had to cutaway in 900 jumps; I'm very confident that I can and will pull the handles in the correct order when I need to, just like I was confident that I could pull the main ripcord on my first freefall. If I wasn't _that sure_ of my ability to handle a malfunction and save my own life, I wouldn't be skydiving. I had two reasons for finally getting a Cypres. First was my plan to do as many large RW formations as possible this year - these type of skydives put me at more risk for a freefall collision. The second reason was simply so I could go jump at a DZ that requires a Cypres on every jumpers rig. I did not add a Cypres to my rig so I could not worry about how I will react in an emergency situation. imho the only excuse for _my_ Cypres to fire is that somehow I wasn't there (ie unconcious). If it ever goes off and I'm awake and aware... the rig is for sale and I'm buying a bowling ball and a pair of those cool shoes. Here's a question for those of you who won't jump without one. Let's say you were in a hurry to get to the plane for a first jump of the day and you realize at 1200' on the way up that you forgot to turn your Cypres on. Whatcha gonna do? Ride the plane down? Or go ahead and do the skydive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #75 July 9, 2002 >I'm a trained airline pilot. I think I've proven that I'm all about > safety and proper training and thinking through problems before > they occur. Agreed, and no machine (TCAS, GPWS, stick pushers in aircraft or cypreses/RSLs on skydiving rigs) can replace proper training and relevant experience. >Well...Capwells cutaway canopies years ago. Why should anyone > have changed their release mechanism to the three-ring release? > They both released your main. Would you apply the same argument to the Airbus style of fly by wire? I don't know what you fly, but the Airbus scheme of keeping the pilot a bit out of the loop is no doubt more technologically advanced - after all, there's no reason you should need to ever bank an A340 past 60 degrees, so the computer should not allow you to. Does that make Airbuses safer overall? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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diverdriver 5 #67 July 9, 2002 Wait...why is "brain-locking" not a good reason for having one? I'm sorry, there isn't a person on the face of the earth except maybe Chuck Yeager that doesn't brain lock at some point. Remember, Jan Davis brain locked on where her pilot chute was located. Why? Distraction. Distraction from the situation. We are ALL suceptible to this. We are human. I'm a trained airline pilot. I think I've proven that I'm all about safety and proper training and thinking through problems before they occur. But I also recognize that we are fallible human beings and that by adding a Cypres to my rig I have added a level of safety that was not there before. A Cypres can't land me. It can't make me flare. But just because it doesn't do EVERYTHING is no excuse to not have one. Well...Capwells cutaway canopies years ago. Why should anyone have changed their release mechanism to the three-ring release? They both released your main. You wouldn't jump a rig with Capewell's now would you (all people in general)? So why, if we have the technological advancement to do it, would you choose to not install a proven safety device?Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #68 July 9, 2002 QuoteDistraction. Distraction from the situation. We are ALL suceptible to this. We are human. I got a bloody nose in freefall once. When my goggles were covered with blood and I couldn't see anything it was pretty damned distracting. Especially since I didn't know I had a nose bleed or why I suddenly couldn't see. Fortunately it happened high, I knew I was at about 9 grand and knew I had at least a few seconds to flip off the goggles so I could see. Otherwise I would have dumped. Now imagine if that happened when I was at pull time, I'm blind, my protrack is screaming in my ear, I know the ground is close, I'm panicked and in that state can't find my hackey and grab frantically for it until I bounce. I don't think I'd panic like that and am almost 100% positive that I'd be fine in that situation. But the bottom line is...you never know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #69 July 9, 2002 QuoteI'm blind, my protrack is screaming in my ear, I know the ground is close, I'm panicked and in that state can't find my hackey and grab frantically for it Try once, try twice, pull the reserve handle...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #70 July 9, 2002 >Remember, Jan Davis brain locked on where her pilot chute was located. Actually... on video Jan was reaching but unable to pull, her shoulder had most likely popped out of place again so it would have mattered where it was. >You wouldn't jump a rig with Capewell's now would you (all people in general)? As long as they are not wired shut.... I'd jump them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #71 July 9, 2002 But I also recognize that we are fallible human beings and that by adding a Cypres to my rig I have added a level of safety that was not there before. A Cypres can't land me. It can't make me flare. But just because it doesn't do EVERYTHING is no excuse to not have one. Don't get me wrong - I don't have a problem with people jumping a Cypres, I'll probably get one in at least one of my 4 rigs before the year is out. But what worries me is that even on the most basic, generic, trivial skydives, people act like not jumping with a Cypres is akin to trying to kill yourself. I know numerous highly experienced jumpers who jumped without them for years and now own them. I have no problem with that. I just worry about the new generation of jumpers who seem to think that jumping without one is as crazy as jumping without a reserve. 99.9999% of skydivers will eventually need to use their reserve. 99.9999% of skydivers will never have a Cypres fire when they're unconscious. All the ones I've witnessed were from low pulls and they all resulted in double deployments. If you read some of the save reports on Airtec's web site - you'll understand why people worry. Numerous people waited for the Cypres, or pulled on something it didn't work so they gave up. One guy died because he exited below Cypres activation altitude and didn't handle the situation right. This kid told his friends that if the Cypres didn't exist he wouldn't be jumping because he didn't think he could handle it. Its that kind of attitude which scares me. The point I try to make to newbies is that if you think you might get knocked out on a skydive, change the frigging skydive. Make it a smaller group, more experienced people and less newbies or whatever. But if you go up on a skydive thinking "it'll be ok, I've got a Cypres" I'll worry like crazy about you. If you plan smart on the ground, the odds of ever needing the thing goes way down. But not enough people do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #72 July 9, 2002 Several folks reading this thread have asked me to post the circumstances regarding my AAD fire- So here goes- Jump number 15 on a static-line progression - Tracking was the last task on the jump, and this was the first time for me to actually track. around six grand I turned, began to track and got unstable in a head-down, spinning, tumbling I-don't-know-what-the-hell-is-going-on situation- thinking "I have to get stable before I pull-"after what I THOUGHT was just a very few seconds, I arched like a sumbitch and WHAM - Reserve is out over my head- (at about 1200' I think-) So I was unstable, disoriented, unaware of my altitude etc. etc-- All kinds of bad shit- I was just a few seconds away from impact- just a few seconds from leaving three of the worlds greatest kids orphans, leaving my wonderful wife a widow, just a few seconds away from the ultimate reality check- I PERSONALLY OWE MY LIFE TO AN AAD! That's my personal endorsement for AAD's lots of other stuff- Won't go into it here- I have read lots of "I know some one who would still be alive if he had an AAD" stories-- Now you can say "I know of some one who is STILL alive because he DID have an AAD". For what it's worth to y'all--- BLUE SKIES!!!!! (and COLD BEER!) C-YA! -Lenny Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #73 July 9, 2002 >We all accept the element of risk in this sport (else we shouldn't do > it) but some prefer to try and ensure that we are as safe as > reasonably possible. About eight years ago a jumper was killed when he relied on his cypres to do something that it could not do (save him when he bailed out of an aircraft at 1000 feet.) He had told his friends that he would not be jumping without a cypres, since he was not confident that he could perform his emergency procedures correctly. He in fact could not, and he died. Had he not been using a cypres, he would be alive today since he would have (wisely) stayed on the ground. This is an example of someone who made a jump they should not have made because the cypres made them feel just safe enough to do it. If there are people like that in the sport, their cypreses are greatly increasing their risk by allowing them to jump in situations they should not. If you doubt that happens, go to a boogie and see if you hear the phrase "hey, that's why I have a cypres." Again, my acid test is asking someone if they are willing to make just one jump under the safest possible conditions with their cypres off. If they cannot or will not, it's likely that they are depending too much on their cypres, and would be safer fixing the thing that worries them rather than simply relying on a cypres. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #74 July 9, 2002 QuoteIsn't that enough of a reason for a newbie like me, at least until I *know* I'll pull silver? If you aren't confident that you'll "pull silver" when needed... perhaps more time practicing emergency procedures is indicated. I've never had to cutaway in 900 jumps; I'm very confident that I can and will pull the handles in the correct order when I need to, just like I was confident that I could pull the main ripcord on my first freefall. If I wasn't _that sure_ of my ability to handle a malfunction and save my own life, I wouldn't be skydiving. I had two reasons for finally getting a Cypres. First was my plan to do as many large RW formations as possible this year - these type of skydives put me at more risk for a freefall collision. The second reason was simply so I could go jump at a DZ that requires a Cypres on every jumpers rig. I did not add a Cypres to my rig so I could not worry about how I will react in an emergency situation. imho the only excuse for _my_ Cypres to fire is that somehow I wasn't there (ie unconcious). If it ever goes off and I'm awake and aware... the rig is for sale and I'm buying a bowling ball and a pair of those cool shoes. Here's a question for those of you who won't jump without one. Let's say you were in a hurry to get to the plane for a first jump of the day and you realize at 1200' on the way up that you forgot to turn your Cypres on. Whatcha gonna do? Ride the plane down? Or go ahead and do the skydive? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #75 July 9, 2002 >I'm a trained airline pilot. I think I've proven that I'm all about > safety and proper training and thinking through problems before > they occur. Agreed, and no machine (TCAS, GPWS, stick pushers in aircraft or cypreses/RSLs on skydiving rigs) can replace proper training and relevant experience. >Well...Capwells cutaway canopies years ago. Why should anyone > have changed their release mechanism to the three-ring release? > They both released your main. Would you apply the same argument to the Airbus style of fly by wire? I don't know what you fly, but the Airbus scheme of keeping the pilot a bit out of the loop is no doubt more technologically advanced - after all, there's no reason you should need to ever bank an A340 past 60 degrees, so the computer should not allow you to. Does that make Airbuses safer overall? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
