Proof of God

[JJohnson 0]

To take the "Do you believe thread" to a different level I submit the following. Not for any other reason than to invite flaming, inspire further debate and cause shit.

I make no point of hiding that I am a recovering alcoholic/drug addict. Anyone who knows me is aware of it. Despite doing the A.A. thing for 12 years as far as being anonymous goes, screw it, I was never very discreet when I was wearing puke on my shoes.

Any of you who might be familiar with any of the 12 step programs may be aware that recovery kinda hinges on a faith in a higher power....for lack of better terminology.....God.

It was at this early stage of recovery that I hit my first obstacle. I had no real belief in God. My mistake is that I was confusing God with manmade religion and doctrine.

I met a man at an AA meeting one night. Never seen him since. But he listened to me talk for a few minutes and later he pulled me aside. He said to me," Your probelm is you lack blind faith in God" To which I replied, "No shit."
I was not raised in any religion and God's name in my house was normally follwed by Damn it! I grew up thinking it was my middle name.
This gentleman then went on to ask me that if he were to lock me in closet, if I could believe that somewhere in the world if the wind was blowing. Depsite the fact that in the closet I could not feel the wind, being a logical person I would have to admit the wind was howling somewhere. This the man said is blind faith. You can accept something despite not having concrete evidence.

My reply to the man was that all he had done was take away my need for God to be solid. Something I could feel, touch, see and hold. But that he had not proven to me the exsistence of God. The smile on his face told me he was waiting for that reply.

He responded by asking me what I did for a living. I told him I worked on aircraft. He said," Good, you work with your hands!" "What can you make?" he asked me.
What can I make???? Well sometimes I think pretty quick, so I glanced around the room and said," I can make a table, a chair, a window....."
Now the dude's smile was about splittin his face in two. He says to me....You don't make anything. You destroy things. You chop down God's perfectly good tree to make the wood to make the table and the chair. You rape the sand off the pristine beach to make the glass for your window. You reassemble the stuff to suit your needs, but your potential for destruction by far outweighs your potential for creation.
Now the guy had me backed into a corner. So in desperation I blurted out," I can make a baby!!" And I knew as soon as I said the words he was gonna stick them in my ear. He says to me," You my friend do nothing of the sort. You have sex. You enjoy yourself, nothing more. The women, hopefully enjoys herself as well, but she does not make a baby either. All you are doing is starting with the seed, the spark of life that God...and God alone has given."
He says to me: You can call God whatever you want. You can contribute whatever miracles you wish to his power and blame him for whatever disasters you wish. But you have to realize, with your own logic that a power greater than yourself does exist. This "higher power" is what makes birds and trees, sunsets and rainstorms. When you look into the eyes of young child and see that pure innocence then you see the evidence of a God. Because no man or woman can make that. Until man/woman can actually make the seed or spark of creation, there is a higher power, who for lack of better terminology we can call God.
Do not confuse a faith in God with religion. Smarter people than you have debated God's word and intentions for as long as we have been on this planet. Simply accept the fact that if you ask him for help he is listening. He may answer you, and you being a human male idiot may not understand it. He may speak through other people, so do not discount anyone you meet as a moron. They may be carrying God's answer to you. Don't ask God for things that you can do for yourself, cause he may be busy doing something more important. God does not do windows so to speak. God wants you to be happy, so go make yourself that way. But the trick is to be happy without making someone else suffer for your happiness. You are here on Earth for a reason, everything that happens good or bad is for a reason. You being the dumb ass that you are might not understand the reason, but that is to be expected. After all, in 26 years (my age at the time), all of your best efforts and thoughts have done nothing more than land you in an AA meeting. Rest assured that everything is exactly the way that God wants it, otherwise he would change it. After all he can make mountains and birds and such.

To this day I make no claim to understand God or what the purpose of life is. I ask God to keep me from drinking and druggin, so I don't have to live like a animal anymore. So I can enjoy life, and cherish the love I experience from other people. A Buddhist friend of mine once said, " All religions basically teach us three things: Peace with our God, peace with ourselves and peace with our fellow human beings."

So not trying to preach anything, other than I can rest assured that if you say God does not exist, you are wrong. I'm still basically the same asshole I was 12 years ago, but I'm getting better and my life is getting better all the time. I love skydiving and I wouldn't have been able to even consider it 12 years ago.

MHO
JJ

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[Satan666 0]

THERE IS NO god, SATAN KILLED HIM.

[gravitysurf808 0]

Good one S6!!!....ummmmmm NOT!!!

Thanks for sharing JJohnson. Well written!

[diver123 0]

While I struggle with the idea of organized religion and mass gatherings (and the like), I do celebrate the idea of a higher power much like the story you just shared. Although I will most likely never fully understand, I do believe deep down that something larger than you and I was responsible for all this... Thanks for the story...

"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[bbarnhouse 0]

JJ~
Thank you for sharing your story.
BB

[skydiverbrian 0]

Very well said. Faith and organized religion are two different things. You were lucky to have some guidance in the matter early on. I (and others, probably) spent years learning the hard way.

In a world full of people, only some want to fly... isn't that crazy! --Seal

[Slappie 9]

I know I've stayed off these threads dealing with religion and such because I have an inner termoil. I am a born again christian. I used to be very into the orginised religion when I was younger. Going to bible studies, bible camp.. ect.. You get the picture. Then later in life I realised I lost some faith because of things that happened in my life for no reason other then to punish me and people I loved. I do believe in a "Higher Power" as people want to call it. But, I have a hard time believing the world and all the wonderous things were created by a "god" because if this "god" was able to do the things people believe it can. Why are there innocent people dying of cancer, serious disease, war? Most of the things I'm talking about are MAN made. We've done this to ourselves. We created most of the diseases. Man started the wars. We've been doing this to ourselves since man was ....{insert your belief} Why hasn't this "Higher Power" or "god" as you wish to call it put a stop to it. We "man" or destroying everything this "god" has created. If you built a house and gave it to your kids. Then they decided they wanted to destroy it brick by brick would you stand by and let them? Think about it.

Now this "Higher Power" is in all of us. It's in the thought processes we are all born with. It's morals, the ability to reason. It's in the good and the bad we all do day in and day out. So basicly I'm trying to do as good as I can. The words "you reap what you sow" kinda a karma thing is what I believe in now. "Do unto others, the way you want them to do unto you" How many good deeds does it take to make up for one bad one? I dunno. I'm rambling here so you can see my internal conflict. I want to know WHY if there is a "Higher Power" that can control our lives, why isn't it here now? The world is a very sad place. We live our lives trying to achieve happiness. Most of us have something that does this on our lives. For me it's the ability to pay my bills keep food in my belly and beer in the fridge. Skydiving is a release of stress and something I love. But, what about the children that are starving and dying. Why isn't this "Higher Power" stopping all the suffering in the world?

When someone can explain that to me and make me understand all the hate and sadness in a life given to us by a "Higher Power" I'll sit down and maybe listen. No organised religion will ever get me to listen to their teachings again.

This is all my opinion. I know many will not like it, but oh well. I am confused by it all most of the time.

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[DickMcMahon 0]

In response to Slappie:

The suffering in the world is testament to the fact that God can't be all-powerful and all-loving at the same time. He's either one or the other.

Which do I believe He is? Well, I like to think He's all-loving and that he's not able to do certain things that He's depending on us to do. He gave away part of His power (freewill). It's easier for me to pray to a God like this, than it is an ALL-POWERFUL God that does nothing about the suffering in the world. WE'RE the ones that need to be actionable about the injustices in the world! God can't do it.

This means God is probably a "risky" guy. He took a chance we'll help out. As a risk taker, skydiving is probably his favorite sport. (An angel has done a tandem with me on a few jumps.)

[james1010 0]

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When someone can explain that to me and make me understand all the hate and sadness in a life given to us by a "Higher Power" I'll sit down and maybe listen.

Man brought about all the hate and sadness in this world, not God. I think the thing to realize here is that God created us with a freewill. For him to intercede and make everything perfect and to cause us to blindly follow and love him like a bunch of robots would void mans freewill. What God wants is for us to love and trust him from our hearts, not because we have to, but because we want to, you know . . . real, genuine love. Make no mistake about it, God is not the reason things are the way they are, man is . . it's all a plethera of by-products from mans sinful nature.

James

[skymedic 0]

God did NOT bring all the hate and sadness....god is not a punishing god. we brought all of this onto our selves...by letting the devil run our lives at times...that is why we pay for it...with misery...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[gravitysurf808 0]

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He gave away part of His power (freewill).

Isn't it interesting that in most religions there's this one common principle (Denial of "self" & the love of others) and we have a choice to do this or instead give in to our desires??

[imho] if more of us lived this way (ummm Golden Rule) each and every day this world might not be in the condition we're in currently.[/imho]

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Very well said. Faith and organized religion are two different things

Spirituality(my personal)<>Religion(people's interpretation)
Telling someone that I am praying for their quick recovery from a recent set back should not automatically imply that I'm also trying to force my personal religious belief's down their throat because they do not believe as I do.
It might just mean that I care for them.

[captainquim 0]

There is no such thing as ‘God’. It has been written in this forum that someone or thing deliberately made things such as mountains etc. This is not true – everything is random. We are one of billions of planets in the universe, and one on which the conditions for life to exist were just perfect. There was most likely many other planets that nearly got it right, but were missing a quark in an electron orbiting a carbon atom. All of the things we see are one huge great big coincidence – one which many believe too big to be true. But from all of the possible planets that sprouted from the BIG BANG – ours was the lucky one to produce life. It is the nature of humans to need a reason for everything, so we take all these coincidences and form a theory of ‘GOD’, to help us deal with the fact that one day we will die and never be seen again – only to rot in the ground. This is why we should spend our lifes enjoying ourselves as much as poss, cos it’s all just a freak happening - SO SKYDIVE!

[gus 1]

JJ,

This guy you met sounds less like a reasoned theologian and more like a wannabe intellectual bully - his logic is far from watertight, his arguments are playschool standard and unconvincing.

If you want to believe then believe - I'm all for religious freedom - but don't let your emotional vunerabilities cloud your judgments: be critical. Blind faith breeds fundamentalism and fanaticism.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[Slappie 9]

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kick cats, they deserve it!

#$^*)&!#$)*&^)!#$&^)&!#)$&^!)#$*&^

Cat are cool!! they will take over the world!!

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them."

[gravitysurf808 0]

[knowing better than to kick a dead horse]

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There is no such thing as ‘God’

Cool, then could you puullllleeezzzz tell everyone (even those who don't believe) to stop saying 'GODDAMN IT' every time something doesn't quite go their way or if they're in anger or pain?
I mean, as you have clearly stated, captain, there is no such thing as God. Come on, I don't say Santa Claus Damnit!!!!! every time I stub my big toe!!

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All of the things we see are one huge great big coincidence – one which many believe too big to be true. But from all of the possible planets that sprouted from the BIG BANG – ours was the lucky one to produce life. It is the nature of humans to need a reason for everything, so we take all these coincidences and form a theory of ‘GOD’, to help us
deal with the fact that one day we will die and never be seen again – only to rot in the ground

I respect your view however; out of curiosity, please share your 'beliefs' on this; why, if we evolved, exploded, or 'lucked out' were we given opposed thumbs?
If we're here only by coincidence or the subsequent theories, should any of us really feel that we'll soon have it "all figured out" as has been stated previously on this forum? We just "happened" right?

adn finally do black holes really exist?

(and finally, do black holes really exist???)

mahalo for your reply ~smile~


[/kicking deadhorse]

[MiataDRM 0]

Sorry, not to change the subject...FIRST...Jeff (JJohnson)...I just wanted to congratulate you on 12 years of sobriety. I know it's a huge accomplishment. As for religion...while I was brought up as a muslim & studied many religions...I still claim islam on documents...but in reality I'm not very religious neither do I believe in any particular religion. I just know to treat other people in a decent manner, follow the laws of the land (except for speed limits) & believe that something bigger than me is out there. Just my 2 cents

Happy Independence day & Semper Fidelis,
Majdi

[gravitysurf808 0]

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I just know to treat other people in a decent manner, follow the laws of the land (except for speed limits) & believe that something bigger than me is out there

Sorry for the "Chistian terminology" but...Amen Brother!!!

"treat people in a decent manner'

isn't this the clincher????

[billvon 2,991]

>We are one of billions of planets in the universe, and one on which
> the conditions for life to exist were just perfect. There was most
> likely many other planets that nearly got it right, but were missing a
> quark in an electron orbiting a carbon atom.

That's a pretty big assumption, that we're the only planet that got it right and developed life. We've been to zero other planets to examine them for life, and we even have evidence that there was life on mars, because the evidence literally fell on us. I would think that the most unlikely event is that we, out of the trillions of planets, are the only planet with life.

[nws01 0]

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I would think that the most unlikely event is that we, out of the trillions of planets, are the only planet with life.

Ummm, does anyone remember Chromeboy? He is from the planet Chromedome! Any questions?...j/k...

[Remster 30]

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But from all of the possible planets that sprouted from the BIG BANG – ours was the lucky one to produce life.

the lucky ONE ???? we have just barely started seing planets in other solar systems. The only ones we can even come close to spotting are the some in our galaxy.... and you say that this IS the only place where life exists in the universe? The only place we know of, maybe, but I think its fair to say that there must be other life out there....

And with any luck, these places are inhabited by Women With Eyes On Their Breasts, or with A Matress For A Back...... I miss the old SNL....

Remster

[billvon 2,991]

>Come on, I don't say Santa Claus Damnit!!!!! every time I stub
>my big toe!!

No, but if you want to, you go right ahead - it won't bother me.

>I respect your view however; out of curiosity, please share >your 'beliefs' on this; why, if we evolved, exploded, or 'lucked out'
> were we given opposed thumbs?

Well, I'll give you my view on it - because at one point we had something like an opposable thumb that didn't work well, and one of our ancestors had a mutation that let him use it to better pick up food. He survived, and spread his genes a little more effectively than the people who couldn't pick up food as well. Multiply this event by ten thousand generations and you go from five fingers to four fingers and a thumb.

>If we're here only by coincidence or the subsequent theories, should
> any of us really feel that we'll soon have it "all figured out" as has
> been stated previously on this forum?

We will never have it all figured out. There will always be a deeper level of quantumn mechanics, cosmology, causality theory, or mathematics that eludes us. Heck, there will be all new disciplines that we will invent as we discover more about the universe. We will never be done learning about the universe.

[captainquim 0]

doooooooods,

i only said that cos i only know of one place. i reckon the chances are that there are many more given the whole random thing. and about the two thumbs thing - go read some darwin.
the point is that in the macro scheme of things - everything happens by chance, maybe at the micro scale we can decide whether to eat chocolate or vanilla, but when alot of decisions such as these interact the result is uncontrollable (this is why no one can predict the stock market).
i've seen tangible proof of science, i've never seen tangible proof of god. tangible is better than intangible - that's why men (and some women) like boobies.

[gravitysurf808 0]

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Well, I'll give you my view on it - because at one point we had something like an opposable thumb that didn't work well, and one of our ancestors had a mutation that let him use it to better pick up food. He survived, and spread his genes a little more effectively than the people who couldn't pick up food as well. Multiply this event by ten thousand generations and you go from five fingers to four fingers and a thumb.

And most dogs secretly hate us to this day for this!!

[Jessica 0]

There was a Far Side cartoon with two cows sitting in a living room, staring grumpily at a ringing phone, and one was saying, "Well, there it goes again. And here we sit, without opposable thumbs."

I feel like Chris Farley all of a sudden.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[kallend 2,027]

If proof existed there would be no need for faith.

Some of us weren't drunks or druggies and didn't suffer these hallucinations.