Canopy Nazi Rant!

[skybytch 273]

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Have you considered using your expertise and getting involved with the USPA?

Considered? Yes. But I can barely afford to pay for the jumps I'm doing now; there's no way I could afford to be a board member (remember - board members don't get paid for what they do; it's a volunteer thing). And besides, I am so not into politics.

[Muenkel 0]

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Quit sucking up Muenkel

That was not sucking up. I am totally serious about what I wrote.

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Chris

[Muenkel 0]

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Considered? Yes. But I can barely afford to pay for the jumps I'm doing now; there's no way I could afford to be a board member (remember - board members don't get paid for what they do; it's a volunteer thing). And besides, I am so not into politics.

Point well taken. Well, like the others said, you probably have helped more people than you know. I think as a salesperson, you should feel free to "advise" people on the proper equipment for their ability. I know, as a student, I would appreciate the advice.

BTW, Nathan, this is not sucking up either!

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Chris

[jceman 1]

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Remember, MOST PEOPLE ARE STUPID.

Clay, I'll go along with that last sentiment (to a degree). But I have noticed, and studies have come to the suprising(to some) conclusion, that as a whole, the skydiving population is more intelligent than the general population. That being said, I have two points I want to emphasize:

1) Most people seem to have missed Lisa's point that while it is incumbent on gear sellers to police what they sell and to whom, they are not the only ones who should act responsibly when recommending gear. Instructors, DZOs, S&TAs and experienced jumpers as a whole should be exercising better judgement in this. Her rant was dirrected at kevin's article that seems to lay all the blame on the gear retailers.

2) Don't come to me if Lisa rejects a sale, I won't be anywhere near as nice as her when I tell you where to go. Having both experienced and witnessed bounces, I don't have the patience she does.

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[scottbre 0]

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and studies have come to the suprising(to some) conclusion, that as a whole, the skydiving population is more intelligent than the general population.

What studies?!

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[Muenkel 0]

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the skydiving population is more intelligent than the general population.

I kinda think you're all retarded.

And I wanna be just like ya!

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Chris

[freeflir29 0]

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Think about it - and be honest - how would YOU feel if you sold someone a canopy that you knew was too aggressive for their experience (or even just wondered "is it?") and they went out and died under it?

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You say you have 5 jumps, weigh about 240, and would like a Cobalt 65??? You realize you're going to die right? OK...as long as we established that. Please allow 6-12 weeks for delivery.

I would say...that really sucks...but I told them so. I feel that people should be RESPONSIBLE for their own actions. I know this isn't the general concensus in America today. These days...no matter what happens...it's someone elses fault.

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It's EVERY jumper's responsibility to encourage new jumpers to buy canopies that will allow them to walk away from the little screwups that we ALL make during our first couple hundred jumps or so

I totally agree with you but if they choose NOT to listen it's hardly mine nor anyone elses fault they were hurt or killed. It's a shame frivolous law suits continue. Check out page 14 of the new Parachutist though. Upper left corner "In defense" article. Those assholes are getting whats coming to them and I for one am very glad to see it.

[MarkM 0]

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I'd love to be able to sell new jumpers mains that they will load at .8 - 1.0. But unfortunately, I can't. Why? Because those new jumpers are being told by people they know and respect (AFF instructors, riggers, etc) that they will be "just fine" under canopies loaded at 1.1-1.25.

Interesting because a .8-1.0 canopy wasn't on my radar for a first rig because of advice from local staff. Ended up with a 1.1 loaded Triathalon 160.

Went Triathalon over Saber/hornet/etc mostly due to advice here.

Figuring a sea level altitude, what loading would you recommend at different jump numbers? How much should that change based on elevation? Does that starting wing loading change based on the canopy brand?

I don't believe I've ever seen a chart like that, only general rules of something like .8 - 1.0 and .9 - 1.1, etc under generic terms like beginner(are you a beginner at 20 jumps? 50?).

[scottbre 0]

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under generic terms like beginner(are you a beginner at 20 jumps? 50?).

I have 126 jumps and I am still a beginner.

"Your mother's full of stupidjuice!"
My Art Project

[fred 0]

Does total size play a role as well? I'm 210-215 without gear, so you'd suggest around 240 sq ft?
My home dz put me on a Triathalon 220, for a wing loading of nearly 1.1:1. This is at less than 30 jumps total on 280 sq ft Mantas. I was pretty nervous about it, but that canopy still felt pretty docile, and not at all beyond my skill level. Obviously, I'm still new, and am probably not the best judge.
So, in your opinion, is my dz out of line letting me load a canopy like this?

[Sebazz1 2]

I will accept responsability for those students I have talked to about canopy selection for their first canopys. The dropzones that i jump at mostly are pretty close to sea level. Also at the dropzone i jump at 85% of the time we have pretty consistant winds that blow from the ocean. Depending on who the student is my recomendations are different. Not only do you have to take each individuals ability into account but you need to realize that for a majority of these students a canopy purchase is a huge investment and that they will be with this canopy for a long time.

1 square foot per 1 pound you weigh (fully geared of course) is what I usually recomend for my students. Depends again.

But if another JM comes a long and says "Dude, he can jump something a little smaller, just be careful in the beggining" The student will of course be torn and usually will go with the smaller canopy thinking to themselves "that the smaller canopy is what I will want to jump eventually anyway so might as well make some safety concessions and get it now"

It is tough. Maybe we should have students sign a waiver before buying gear from a retailer so as to imdemnify the retailer?

As a JM I try really hard to make students make intelligent and conservative choices for their first canopies. But who are they really going to listen too? They will listen to whomever tells them what they want to hear.

[JDBoston 0]

I agree with Clay that most people are stupid and like to shift blame. However, I think someone selling canopies would be more to blame if they DIDN'T try to talk people out of what they know to be risky or even stupid decisions. The social fabric is pretty loose these days, and though skydivers are better than most in that area, I don't think people anywhere take it upon themselves often enough to tell other people when they think they're going to get hurt.

I think canopy dealers have every right in the world to try and change someone's mind, and if that doesn't work, to say, "go get it somewhere else then." Maybe that will help get the message across to the occasional thick-skulled people out there. That's not regulation, it's capitalism at its best - the collective force of the canopy dealers' experience deciding that the legal and guilt-related risks of selling people more canopy than they can handle outweigh the potential profits.

Joe

[skreamer 1]

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Tell them their practicing for BASE jumping.

lol, my first rig was an old Vector 1 with a Cruiselite '220 which I was loading at 0.8:1 . I wasn't terribly proud of it or anything, but then Harry Parker told me it was the perfect canopy to practice on if I wanted to do Bridge Day and that Cruiselites were commonly used as BASE canopies in earlier years. Suddenly my old Cruiselite seemed pretty cool to me!

[Cajun 0]

In the bigair sportz owners manual, they have a suggested wing loading chart for their parachutes. It goes something like
100+ jumps 1.1
200+ jumps 1.2
300+ jumps 1.3

They also say you have no business jumping a samurai if you have less than 300 jumps. Seem like a pretty good recommendation to me. They also tack on "If in doubt go big" I know that PD suggests that if you are going to downsize only do it in 15% increments and only if you have put more than 50 jumps on your current canopy.

[Snowbird 0]

I'm just at the point of buying my first gear, a Falcon 175 that I'll load at .9, which from my reading here and elsewhere should suit me fine for a good while. BUT when asking around at the dz the advise I got ranged from getting a 200 to 150. 150! From a very experienced instructor. I just nodded and thought 'not a chance!' To give him the benefit of the doubt, he didn't ask what I weigh so he may have judged that too low.

I have to admit, though, I did consider the fact that I might get bored quickly with a big canopy. But the more I read, the more I realise how much more there is to flying a canopy than just 'coming down', and I plan to learn to fly what I've got really well before worrying about downsizing. I'd rather be jumping something big until I'm 70, than jumping something small until I'm 32! (30 now...)

So Lisa, rant on! As a student coming here for the community/information/support, rants like yours have given me tonnes of info to base my choices on. From a sales side, I understand the frustration. Some customers simply don't want to hear what you have to say. They've made up their minds, and close you out. I believe in karma - your choice to let them go elsewhere when you sincerely believe they are making a big mistake will pay off in the long run.

Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs should relax and get used to the idea.
-Robert A. Heinlein

[freeflir29 0]

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I realise how much more there is to flying a canopy than just 'coming down'

Good...it seems like a lot of people don't. They want to swoop a little so instead of learning to fly the canopy they just downsize. Pretty stupid huh......I was doing 270 hook approaches on almost every landing before I downsized. I knew how to fly that canopy....

[freebird 0]

I was told that a 135 would fine for me .....I ahve been jumping rental gear Sabre 150.I weigh 105 so I ahd a pretty low wing load......Im now loading a 135 Sabre at .9.........It is pretty fast on opening but I think it will be forgiving........My problem with the lager canopy was not being able to jump in even a little wind.............

[Phil 0]

First of all - Lisa good job. It takes guts to say NO! instead of just making the sale and to forget about it.
I like to read what some of you are saying about taking your own responsibility and decide for yourself. I might be wrong, but the same ones are also the ones who write about that stupid, poor f*ck who crash landed and hurt/killed himself because he didn't have a clue on how to land his canopy. This jumper took the responsibility and bought a canopy, that - according to him - would do the job just fine. He was an experienced jumper (>20jumps - right? my arse) and had really a clue, what's good for him. Well he was wrong -right?
Isn't it the fact, that most of us decided to buy a specific canopy after student status because a lot of people we trusted (dz, this forum etc.) recommended it to us?

So based on what kind of experience do you make the joyce if you don't have the ground work under your belt about the concept of flying a high performance canopy?

I know, some of you are born talents and did their AFF with a VX 97 with a 3.1 load. Great, that leaves the rest of us with the normal routine of starting slowly but safely two sizes bigger than necessary and working our way down.

C'mon the majority of our brothers/sisters that left us, died because of a landing that went wrong. I don't say, that a bigger canopy would have saved them all, but one or the other would still be jumping with us now. So one life saved would be worth considering giving someone the advise, to buy something bigger and to wait with the 2.3 load.

What's wrong with not just taking responsibility for yourselves but also for your friends. I don't give a shit about saving the world, but I care about my friends/family and because I care I act!

Enough of this. I know - everyone to himself and blue skies for all.

how high can you fly with broken wings ...
life's a journey not a destination

[Sebazz1 2]

Snowbird you are da bomb but rarely do people think like that. My first canopy that I bought was a Falcon 195. At the time (i used to be lighter than I am now) It was 1.0:1 wingloading. I flew the bejeesus outta that canopy. I jumped it till I had almost 300ish jumps. I was not ashamed that I was like the only person jumping a non ZP canopy at my DZ for the amount of jumps I had. I had no problem. But I will say that most of the students see the JM's jumping ZP and thus want it also.

I have seen JM's recomend as much as 1.4:1 wingloading to students with 20 jumps. Crazy crazy.

Lisa you tell em they have a death wish and to go elsewhere. And if they gots a problem with you I do not think you'll have any problems finding some back up to go demonstrate to the individual the pain broken bones cause

Cheer up drink beer!

[freebird 0]

Actually my canopy is a Sabre 2 135.Im trying to get myself down to 95 or 100 pounds so I can learn to land it on final at a smaller wing load( of course jumping with other may be diffcult I will really have to arch)..It may sound crazy but Im serious Im running 3 to four times a week.

[gale 0]

I can see why you're so frusterated. Working in the industry must be difficult if you care for people's wellbeing.

As someone else mentioned, perhaps a waiver is in order when you sell gear. "We take no responsibility of your stupidity when landing this canopy..."

As someone at my dz said to me though, this is an adult sport, you have to trust people to make their own adult desicions. And as a adult if you want to jump a hanky and hook in, well that's you're right. Just like it's your right to drag race your sports car and get run off the road.

I applaude your efforts to try and prevent bad things from happening to those in the skydiving family, but there is only so much you can do. Good luck, keep at it. Remember that changing one persons mind and saving one persons life, is enough.

Gale

I'm drowning...so come inside
Welcome to my...dirty mind

[GrumpySmurf 0]

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I feel that people should be RESPONSIBLE for their own actions

In the end, they are ultimately responsible for thier own actions - either from ending up the ER or the morgue.

I concur with Lisa on this one, if we see someone who is making, what we feel, is a poor decision in equipment acquisition based on thier experience and skill - each and everyone one of us should feel personally responsible to let this person know in the most tactful manner possible - and not take the attitude, "It's thier decision, they are responsible." and simply walk away. If we, each and everyone of us, are not part of the solution - then we are part of the problem. I know personally, I've seen far too many people in the past year get carted off to the ER due to a canopy they tried to grow into rather than a canopy that they grew out of, and simply put - I'm sick of it.

There is a saying, there is no such thing as a poor student, simply a poor teacher - if the person chooses not to listen, it is because you haven't been the best teacher - either you have to impress upon them to buy a canopy to suit thier skills, or to get the training to get thier proficency up to the level of the canopy. How to convince a stubborn mule that this is the best choice, varies from case to case.

[freeflir29 0]

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and not take the attitude, "It's thier decision, they are responsible." and simply walk away.

I'm all about saying something to them. Sadly, most don't seem to listen. Like a guy with 400 jumps and a Velocity 108. He had PLENTY of people say something to him. All of them had AT LEAST 4 times that number of jumps and a DZO that refused to let him jump at his DZ. What did he do....he went to another DZ that lets just about anything go. He hasn't seriously hurt himself YET..... I hope that trend continues but I'm not confident of it. He made a decision and if it kills him it's nobody's fault but his.

[Scoby 0]

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Actually my canopy is a Sabre 2 135.Im trying to get myself down to 95 or 100 pounds so I can learn to land it on final at a smaller wing load( of course jumping with other may be diffcult I will really have to arch)..It may sound crazy but Im serious Im running 3 to four times a week.

That's funny...I'm trying to gain weight, so I'm taking into account future weight gain in my search for a canopy.

[skybytch 273]

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Figuring a sea level altitude, what loading would you recommend at different jump numbers?

You can't go by raw jump numbers; there are too many variables. Assuming "average" canopy control instruction, student jumps done under canopies loaded .6-.8, an average level of physical fitness, no previous injuries that need protecting and a plan to stay reasonably current, ideally I'd recommend loadings of .8-1.0 for a first main (i.e a jumper just off student status - 10-30 jumps or so). If a jumper will not be staying current, has previous knee/back/ankle/leg injuries, is not in the best of shape, etc, then they'd likely be better off with a bigger first main. If a jumper was trained at a dz that uses zp mains loaded at .8-1.0 and emphasizes top quality canopy control training then perhaps they could start at 1.0.

From there it really depends on the person - some jumpers will be happy at 1.0 for the rest of their jumping career, others won't. The decision to downsize beyond a loading of 1.0 should be made when the jumper is capable of landing that first canopy standing up in any conditions (into the wind, crosswind, downwind, no wind, strong winds). The jumper also should not only know how to use but regularly practice using all available control inputs (toggles, front risers, rear risers), know how to do and regularly practice doing flat turns and flare turns, and be able to put that canopy down exactly where they want or need to put it every time. These are basic canopy control survival skills. Some jumpers can do this at 100 jumps; others will never be able to do it.

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How much should that change based on elevation?

The "rule of thumb" I've always heard is one canopy size per 1000 feet of elevation. Personally I've found that to be a bit too conservative - having jumped my main at 1500 feet and at sea level, I'd figure it more like one canopy size per 1500-2000 feet of elevation. This is far more important for a new jumper than for a jumper with hundreds or thousands of jumps.

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Does that starting wing loading change based on the canopy brand?

Not really - assuming of course that we aren't talking about putting a new jumper under a crossbraced pocket rocket. Pretty much any of the canopies currently on the market will be docile enough to keep a newbie safe at those wingloadings. If the jumper wants a bit more responsiveness out of their first canopy then they should consider one of the semi-elliptical mains like the Sabre2 or Hornet; at the same loadings any of those canopies will be more responsive (i.e. turn tighter and faster) than a traditional rectangular shaped canopy (like a Tri).

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are you a beginner at 20 jumps? 50?

Yes. In many ways, I still consider myself a beginner at 900 jumps, especially when I compare myself to the likes of JC Colclasure, Clint Clawson, Mike Ortiz, Kate Cooper, BJ Worth, etc.