tsalnukt 1 #1 October 10, 2013 It's probably been done but I was just wondering, from a riggers point of view, what do you like and don't like about any of the rigs on the market today. IOWs, If you were to design your own harness/container system, what things from other rigs would you put in? What would you leave out/do away with? What would you add that isn't already out there? Reserve systems, closing sequences, harness styles, looks, construction, cutter location, etc. Would love yo hear what people have to say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #2 October 10, 2013 tsalnukt It's probably been done but I was just wondering, from a riggers point of view, what do you like and don't like about any of the rigs on the market today. IOWs, If you were to design your own harness/container system, what things from other rigs would you put in? What would you leave out/do away with? What would you add that isn't already out there? Reserve systems, closing sequences, harness styles, looks, construction, cutter location, etc. Would love yo hear what people have to say. Tight tapered reserve pack trays put form over function...everyone knows it but instead of redesigning anything we'll just raise opening altitudes thus hard decks & hope for the best. Having 162 different flaps & tuck tabs all over he place in order to make the rig FF friendly' - can stage the deployment in a less than symmetrical fashion, causing uneven loading during inflation which and lead to various kinds of malfunctions...putting you in need of that tight, tapered reserve container working right, hopefully you have a reserve pilot chute strong enough to wedge it's way through those flaps! Articulated harnesses & smoochie back pads are nice...but in some ways they are a band aid fix for a harness system that's been utilized for decades...Surely by now someone would have designed something strong, light & comfortable in the harness system. Soft handles are cute...not real safe - but cute. You could list ad nauseum the things that would take considerable engineering & testing to get in the air...or just: Get A RACER! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ctrph8 0 #3 October 10, 2013 In general, rigs have been getting better and better. Most of the manufacturers have been tweaking and upgrading their designs so you have a bunch of good options and a couple of great ones. The reserve systems all work well. The bigger manufacturers obviously have more rigs out there and therefore more reserve activations. That means they have more data to study for what works and what doesn't and have incorporated that into their designs. I really like the low bulk reserves. More canopy overhead in the same space that it would take to pack a smaller one is a great innovation. I have an Optimum but I really want to demo a Nano by Icarus. A MARD (Skyhook, RAX, DRX, Boost, etc) is a very cool feature. I repacked mine last night and was marveling at the ingenuity that went into it. The reality is that an RSL is still a very good thing and they work great too. I recently purchased a semi-stowless D-bag. Mine is from UPT but there are other good ones out there. I like packing it and I also think I'm liking the deployments a bit more. It's still a new toy and I don't have all that many jumps on it though. tsalnuktIt's probably been done but I was just wondering, from a riggers point of view, what do you like and don't like about any of the rigs on the market today. IOWs, If you were to design your own harness/container system, what things from other rigs would you put in? What would you leave out/do away with? What would you add that isn't already out there? Reserve systems, closing sequences, harness styles, looks, construction, cutter location, etc. Would love yo hear what people have to say. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dokeman 0 #4 October 10, 2013 I would rather pack/use a racer before any other rig. only 4 flaps + adjustable closing loop = my preference! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #5 October 11, 2013 Quote The reserve systems all work well. The bigger manufacturers obviously have more rigs out there and therefore more reserve activations. That means they have more data to study for what works and what doesn't and have incorporated that into their designs. Well..let's say, all of 'em work most of the time & some of 'em work all the time. But to say they all work well may be a stretch. Manufacturers collect data on all their reserve activations? I did not know that! From a more critical viewpoint, one could speculate that 'some' design changes & configurations might be being incorporated to temper the problems incurred from the form over function demands of the skydivers today. RSL yanks the pin but the tapered & tight lay out of the reserve added to the full length F.F. side flaps tends to make the pilot chute struggle a bit at times - lets connect the departing main to the free bag, Hell THAT'LL pull 'er out...sure it's a bit complicated but they'll pay for it to have a good looking rig! Suppose we COULD figure out a way to put the reserve pilot chute outside of those flaps...like the high dollar, no 2nd chance, low level bail-out rigs those airshow pilots trust their lives to - but then it would prolly look like, oh god no, a RACER! Hey I got an idea...let's make the EP handles small, slick and hard to grab, they'll LOOK cool and cost a fraction of what metal handles do to make - but we'll charge the same or heck, put cute sayings on them and charge MORE! Tell 'em they're 'safer' because some CReW dog hooked a hard ripcord in a wrap couple decades ago...Most of those guys have AAD's anyway, handles are damn near a secondary afterthought...Bet we can increase profits by...using cheaper thread through hardware on the leg straps! We'll market it as a weight saver, then sell 'em a weight belt...name it something cool & different like step-in harness... 'cause everybody knows cool is always better. Tell 'em the snap hardware that the military has been using for 100 years is no good because it breaks ALL THE TIME, even if they don't really. - I know these people, who wants to pay attention to what they're doin' when they put on a parachute? Who cares if ya can't get it off in a plane crash or when you hit a lake because nobody can spot...I can go on...but ya REALLY don't want me to. Makes the kool-aid taste funny when I do. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #6 October 11, 2013 airtwardo Quote The reserve systems all work well. The bigger manufacturers obviously have more rigs out there and therefore more reserve activations. That means they have more data to study for what works and what doesn't and have incorporated that into their designs. Well..let's say, all of 'em work most of the time & some of 'em work all the time. But to say they all work well may be a stretch. Manufacturers collect data on all their reserve activations? I did not know that! From a more critical viewpoint, one could speculate that 'some' design changes & configurations might be being incorporated to temper the problems incurred from the form over function demands of the skydivers today. RSL yanks the pin but the tapered & tight lay out of the reserve added to the full length F.F. side flaps tends to make the pilot chute struggle a bit at times - lets connect the departing main to the free bag, Hell THAT'LL pull 'er out...sure it's a bit complicated but they'll pay for it to have a good looking rig! Suppose we COULD figure out a way to put the reserve pilot chute outside of those flaps...like the high dollar, no 2nd chance, low level bail-out rigs those airshow pilots trust their lives to - but then it would prolly look like, oh god no, a RACER! Hey I got an idea...let's make the EP handles small, slick and hard to grab, they'll LOOK cool and cost a fraction of what metal handles do to make - but we'll charge the same or heck, put cute sayings on them and charge MORE! Tell 'em they're 'safer' because some CReW dog hooked a hard ripcord in a wrap couple decades ago...Most of those guys have AAD's anyway, handles are damn near a secondary afterthought...Bet we can increase profits by...using cheaper thread through hardware on the leg straps! We'll market it as a weight saver, then sell 'em a weight belt...name it something cool & different like step-in harness... 'cause everybody knows cool is always better. Tell 'em the snap hardware that the military has been using for 100 years is no good because it breaks ALL THE TIME, even if they don't really. - I know these people, who wants to pay attention to what they're doin' when they put on a parachute? Who cares if ya can't get it off in a plane crash or when you hit a lake because nobody can spot...I can go on...but ya REALLY don't want me to. Makes the kool-aid taste funny when I do. No more calls......we have a winner! SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #7 October 11, 2013 airtwardo Who cares if ya can't get it off in a plane crash or when you hit a lake because nobody can spot... Hey asshole, I started at a DZ with static lines and no GPS, I can spot! cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #8 October 11, 2013 grue *** Who cares if ya can't get it off in a plane crash or when you hit a lake because nobody can spot... Hey asshole, I started at a DZ with static lines and no GPS, I can spot! Oh yeah? Pretty good at looking straight down, pinpointing your location, reading slip & drift?? Too Cool! Find yer shoe yet? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #9 October 11, 2013 airtwardo ****** Who cares if ya can't get it off in a plane crash or when you hit a lake because nobody can spot... Hey asshole, I started at a DZ with static lines and no GPS, I can spot! Oh yeah? Pretty good at looking straight down, pinpointing your location, reading slip & drift?? Too Cool! Find yer shoe yet? Start out with looking at the METAR, doing basic math to get a starting point and estimate ground speed for separation, go up and use the frame of the door to get a visual reference for straight down and reference against drift This shit makes me feel like an old timer!cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #10 October 11, 2013 airtwardo Find yer shoe yet? Nope :( I did the math based on the spot and figure it kicked out pretty hard off of the DZ property and potentially all the way into the ocean depending on what terminal velocity of that little fucker was.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #11 October 11, 2013 grue ********* Who cares if ya can't get it off in a plane crash or when you hit a lake because nobody can spot... Hey asshole, I started at a DZ with static lines and no GPS, I can spot! Oh yeah? Pretty good at looking straight down, pinpointing your location, reading slip & drift?? Too Cool! Find yer shoe yet? Start out with looking at the METAR, doing basic math to get a starting point and estimate ground speed for separation, go up and use the frame of the door to get a visual reference for straight down and reference against drift This shit makes me feel like an old timer! If the aircraft is in a gentle bank, you won't feel it & using the door frame is useless. Screw in a Mk. 1 standard issue eyeball & draw a right angle off the horizon front, back & straight out the door. The line of the horizon will usually give ya a pretty good indication of where the planet is. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #12 October 11, 2013 I just cheat and checked the artificial horizon in the plane, easy enough to see. The frame of the door I used more as point of ref vs the ground to see rate of change and such :)cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
uberchris 0 #13 October 11, 2013 man you guys have me confused......... back to the original topic, have there been cases of the tight, tapered reserve trays COMPLETELY keeping a reserve in the pack tray causing fatalities/bounces, or is it more of an issue with the reserve hesitating and thus eating up a shitload more altitude during deployment? cheersgravity brings me down......... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #14 October 11, 2013 Read some of the other threads. But, yes all of the above. Any one have a link to the wings video. I'm not smart enough to find it. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 28 #15 October 11, 2013 uberchrisman you guys have me confused......... back to the original topic, have there been cases of the tight, tapered reserve trays COMPLETELY keeping a reserve in the pack tray causing fatalities/bounces, or is it more of an issue with the reserve hesitating and thus eating up a shitload more altitude during deployment? cheers you may have noticed that Cypres made it possible for jumpers to offset the activation alti permanently and that is because there are documented "delays and hesitations" in reserve deployments based exactly on the things airtwardo wrote about, haven't you? one of the most vocal people about raising activation alti is the guy with the long beard who's selling one of the aforementioned gadgets everybody is so happy about.... strange coincidence, ain't it?The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 28 #16 October 11, 2013 larger reserves! I know you can get custom-custom-made containers which fit large reserves and small mains, usually these designs cost some extra dough and since jumpers are cheap everybody sticks with the 1:1 main-reservesize ratio. It would be great if that option would be more commonThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #17 October 11, 2013 airtwardo Get A RACER! N.B other Pop-tops are availableSo do you count the TSE Tear Drop in that club too? If not, where do you see any 'issues' with this rig please? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #18 October 11, 2013 shropshire ***Get A RACER! N.B other Pop-tops are availableSo do you count the TSE Tear Drop in that club too? If not, where do you see any 'issues' with this rig please? I dunno, never ate one. Does it have a super strong one piece harness like a Racer? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catyduck 0 #19 October 11, 2013 airtwardothe tapered & tight lay out of the reserve uberchristhe tight, tapered reserve trays Please forgive the confused newbie question, but...aren't tight and tapered potentially different factors, with one connected more to the size of the reserve than the fit of the container? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #20 October 11, 2013 Yes. But in my oppionen, for what little it's worth, there are actually many factors at play. That's part of the problem. No one can point to a particular design, size, combination and say, "That will fail." There are too many variables that can add up to a problem on a rig. The easiest way to describe it is that it's a product of an over all trend in industry that has been developing and building up over years until we've reached a critical mass where we are seeing enough of these incedents that they are attracting peoples attention. Several threads on this subject. Ultimantly I think the only way out will be the same way we got into it. We're going to have to build our way out with both small and fundamental changes to our designs. And over time the problem will go away just like it appeared. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DcloudZ 0 #21 October 11, 2013 RiggerLeeRead some of the other threads. But, yes all of the above. Any one have a link to the wings video. I'm not smart enough to find it. Lee Talking about the one where he grabbed the reserve pilot chute bridle while on his back and pulled it out? I could find that for you, hold on"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nutellaontoast 0 #22 October 11, 2013 airtwardoDoes it have a super strong one piece harness like a Racer?Have there been any documented cases of harness failure? I thought that there hadn't.Don't let the fact that I sound like I think that I know what I'm talking about fool you. I know that I don't know what I'm talking about Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 36 #23 October 11, 2013 DcloudZ***Read some of the other threads. But, yes all of the above. Any one have a link to the wings video. I'm not smart enough to find it. Lee Talking about the one where he grabbed the reserve pilot chute bridle while on his back and pulled it out? I could find that for you, hold on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaYQ6iP8zlg Cheers!"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigMark 1 #24 October 11, 2013 nutellaontoast***Does it have a super strong one piece harness like a Racer?Have there been any documented cases of harness failure? I thought that there hadn't. Didn't some Javelins with adjustable laterals fail? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #25 October 11, 2013 Wasn't it a racer that that blew out a chest strap. Asymetric hard opening and totally tore out all the stitching on one side. I don't recall if they fell out or just got really scared. There was a Russian rig that came apart at the upper junction of the harness at the three ring. It also tore all the stitching. I've seen several nonfatal incidents with either partial or total failure of stitching in the lower junction do to the downwards torking of the webbing. Javelins use wrap around harnesses there and have at least some back up stitching which saved his life. I don't know the details but I always heard stories about a full failure there, late eighties early nineties? They changed the harness in the middle of the vector two around in there. It now wraps around the inner layer of type 8 webbing. And the javelins did break but that was wear a long time coming. We got complacent about the amount of wear till it finally bit us in the ass. I'm going to edit this to add that regardless of how that sounds there really have not been a significant number of harness failures. Harnesses are tough. We over build them and even with a number of fatalities from deceleration we are not breaking harnesses. Your feamers will break, your liver will tear lose with in your abdomen, your aorta will tear in half and your neck will break before you blow up a sound harness. I say that because I've seen or know of every one of those incidents. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
