Hooked turns?

[dove 0]

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Talk to Wildblue on his broken leg... a nice landing from all accounts and it left him with like 5 pins or screws in the leg. One of the other jumpers at the DZ had a slighly hard landing that snaped her tibia and fibia. Shes got a couple of screws now too. One of the TM's has had his leg snapped when a tandem student fell on it during landing. Even a normal landing can bite you bad if one thing is slightly off...

Oh oh oh! Pick me! Pick me! I had a stand up landing that looked totally normal to everyone watching. Only thing NOT normal about it was I shattered and compressed my tibial plateau. Nice safe skydive and landing and I was out for 16 weeks. No matter how safe you are skydiving is still a risk.
Don't apologize for asking questions.... it's the best way to learn!
dove - the "healing machine"

[iynx 0]

I have to appologize =)
If I don't, people view me as an asshole, appologizing is my way of saying I was wrong. I've still got a LOT more appologies to go =P
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.

[TomAiello 26]

It's not just skydivers talking about BASE. It's also BASE jumpers talking about each other...
"...when you condemn someone else's decisions based on your own decision making criteria, you are engaged in classic "whuffo-ism". "What fo' ya jumpin' fo'?" quickly becomes "What fo' ya BASE jumpin' fo'?" which quickly becomes "What fo' ya free falling under 200 feet fo'?" or "What fo' ya pulling low fo'?"...."
We had a short discussion about this a while back in another on-line forum (http://www.blincmagazine.com/forum/board/3754.html) that you might find entertaining.

[SBS 0]

Hook turns are fun. Swooping is fun. As far as I am concerned, they are part of my skydive, just as much as the freefall is what you value.
Whuffo's will look at us many times, and say, "that just isn't worth it", or, "that's too dangerous". We, though, have made a choice that says that the benefit is worth the risk. People who hook turn and swoop are saying the same thing...they consider the benefit to be worth the risk. As skydivers, we do not appreciate when our families and friends are against us skydiving, but would appreciate support. I believe that this is the same thing, that people should not try to discourage others from hook turning, but encourage them to do it in the safest way possible, if that is how they choose to enjoy their time at the DZ.
Just my 2 cents.
:-)
Steve

[StevieBoy 0]

"Paul Quade -- The World's Most Boring Skydiver"
Me also Bro, well said, but I still have way toooooo much fun that I can handel, life is too good to me sometimes.
"Skydiving's a source, it'll change your life, swear to God"

[billvon 2,991]

>Whuffo's will look at us many times, and say, "that just isn't worth it", or, "that's
> too dangerous". We, though, have made a choice that says that the benefit is
> worth the risk.
Not always; pulling at 500 feet is not worth the risk, and you will be banned from any DZ you try it at. We've decided that as a group.
>I believe that this is the same thing, that people should not try to discourage
> others from hook turning, but encourage them to do it in the safest way
> possible, if that is how they choose to enjoy their time at the DZ.
There are times for both. I have grounded people who were just plain incompetent, even though they wanted to jump and were willing to risk their lives. I've told people they couldn't hook turn because they weren't yet competent enough to do it reliably. Often, this doesn't work - they just go elsewhere. But since it does, sometimes, save lives, I'm going to continue to do it.
-bill von

[dove 0]

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I believe that this is the same thing, that people should not try to discourage others from hook turning, but encourage them to do it in the safest way possible, if that is how they choose to enjoy their time at the DZ.

Just because you enjoy it doesn't mean you should be allowed to do it. Not only do put your own safety at risk, but that of other jumpers and spectators as well. Not to mention the possibility of infringing on the rights of every skydiver to jump if an injury/fatality gets enough publicity.
If only Jeffery Dahmer's lawyer had known the best defense was, "But your honor, my client ENJOYS eating people!"

[SBS 0]

Not always; pulling at 500 feet is not worth the risk, and you will be banned from any DZ you try it at. We've decided that as a group.
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One has nothing to do with the other. What I said was that in skydiving, as in hook turning, those who practice it are making a statement that the benefit is worth the risk. If you look at what I said, you would see that IF we were to consistantly pull at 500 feet, we would be making the collective statement that the benefit is worth the risk. Also, if someone regularly pulls at 500 feet, they are making the statement that for them, the benefit is worth the risk. If one does not understand the risks involved in an action, though, then this does not stand true, because they are not making an educated decision, i.e.-if a whuffo were to take a rig that he/she got at a surplus store, jump out of a friend's plane, and pull at 100 feet, not being educated as to the altitude needed to deploy a parachute.
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There are times for both. I have grounded people who were just plain incompetent, even though they wanted to jump and were willing to risk their lives. I've told people they couldn't hook turn because they weren't yet competent enough to do it reliably. Often, this doesn't work - they just go elsewhere. But
since it does, sometimes, save lives, I'm going to continue to do it.
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That is more or less what I was saying...you don't ground people for hook turning, you ground people when that is what is needed to drive the point home that they do not have the experience to be performing those types of maneuvers. Your goal is not to keep them from hook turning in the future when they know how to do it, it is to keep them alive for the time being. In other words, helping them to learn to do it safely. You are correct, they will go do it somewhere else. A good percentage of the time, it is not because they have been scolded, but because what has been conveyed to them is an attitude that is not helpful to what they feel they want to accomplish in the sport. That is one of the reasons I moved away from the DZ where I used to jump...all I got was an attitude of "don't do it". Moving here, I found people who were not degrading my abilities, but were saying, "here, let us help you to do this right". We are in a position of parenting, where when a youth in this sport is scolded, we need to make every effort to communicate the fact that we are doing it out of caring for both their well being and the future of our sport as a whole.
Steve

[SBS 0]

Just because you enjoy it doesn't mean you should be allowed to do it. Not only do put your own safety at risk, but that of other jumpers and spectators as well. Not to mention the possibility of infringing on the rights of every skydiver to jump if an injury/fatality gets enough publicity.
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Everyone is at a certain amount of risk in this sport. Spectators included. What puts them at risk in this case is when, first and foremost, a) a hook turn is improperly executed, and b) when they are in the way.
Proper education will greatly reduce the number of people that are injured in this sport from hook turns, both jumpers doing them, and spectators. Awareness on the spectators part will greatly reduce the number of injuries to themselves as well. If these people are whuffos and do not understand, they do not belong in the path of someone under canopy. If people are lining up along a pond to observe night swooping, they damn well better understand that there is a risk of getting injured or killed, just as if they were standing along side the track at a car race. If they are not willing to assume that risk, then they need to stand back.
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If only Jeffery Dahmer's lawyer had known the best defense was, "But your honor, my client ENJOYS eating people!"
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Although funny, that's not even reasonable. I may change my mind if you can demonstrate how hook turning in any way is as evil or as directly harmful as eating another human being. We are talking about an extention of an extreme sport that we all love...not about something that is morally reprehensible.
Steve

[gale 0]

"You need to understand that this sport can kill you. You need to understand that if you're in this sport for any amount of time you will lose friends, and worse, you'll watch friends die right in front of you. These rules apply to everybody, remember, you're someones friend too."
I would just like to say this:
Life will kill you. It's just a matter of time. And living life you will see other people around you die. Being a skydiver might cause this to be more frequent, but make no mistake, it happens to everyone.
Driving is dangerous and I do it all the time. In fact I did everything right yesterday and got hit by a car. (Not serious)
Yup, skydiving is dangerous, but so are lots of things.
Gale
Isn't life the strangest thing you've ever seen?