Hooked turns?

[iynx 0]

Well, first off, I don't know what a hooked turn is. But from all I've seen, they appear to be really dangerous. Just since yesterday I've read reports of about 2-3 people injured from doing hooked turns (Or something to that effect) too low.
Why are so many people doing this kind of thing? If these turns are so dangerous, what's the advantange? I'm assuming it's the thrill of a fast turn, or harsh turn, but even still... that's no excuse to sacrifice safety for a little speed. That's what freefall's for.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

It's done to gain speed - the more speed you have, the longer you can swoop
Wynona's got herself a big brown beaver
and she shows it off to all her friends ....

[thrillseek 0]

I have to say, i have the same view of hook turns. I have seen one friend nearly die in my arms due to a misjudged hook turn. The numbers don't lie...this is the biggest reason for fatalities lately. I am just as thrilled after a gentle canopy decent as anyone, and i see no purpose in elevating the risk level to a point that leaves me no "outs".
That being said, I also know a lot of people that only enjoy the canopy ride as their sense of excitement. These folks generally have a lot of jumps and attain some sort of guidance on the matter prior to attempting hook turns. There should be more advanced canopy schools around the country so people can learn properly and do their thing with more safety.
The fact is, some jumpers will ALWAYS push the envelope. If that weren't the case, we'd all still be looking up at the clouds wishing we could fly. Our sport continues to evolve.

[iynx 0]

Is there a better way to swoop than doing hook turns? Or at least a safer way? I can't see how that genre could get so popular if you have about 2-3 injuries per week.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.

[billvon 2,991]

>Is there a better way to swoop than doing hook turns? Or at least a safer way?
Yes; there are several canopy control schools/coaches/programs that can teach that. You have to want to make the effort though.
-bill von

[PhreeZone 20]

You see those guys surfing across the DZ jump after jump? Yep... most of them have hurt themself doing that at one point or another... but speed is addictive.... I know that one all to well Can you believe that skydiving is so popular when we lost 6 people in less then a month this summer already? On average about 32 people die jumping every year.... but that does not stop people from jumping does it?
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[iynx 0]

But, basically, there are better and safer ways than doing hook turns. At this stage in the game, I'm not too interested in swooping, I'm trying to figure out the benefits of hook turns when they're so dangerous. If there's more ways of swooping than hooking, why do it? So many people get hurt because of it.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.

[Hooknswoop 19]

"Why are so many people doing this kind of thing? If these turns are so dangerous, what's the advantange? I'm assuming it's the thrill of a fast turn, or harsh turn, but even still... that's no excuse to sacrifice safety for a little speed. That's what freefall's for."
Change a couple of words and you get a whuffo's point of view:
Why are so many people doing this kind of thing? If these jumps are so dangerous, what's the advantange? I'm assuming it's the thrill of speed, or cheating death, but even still... that's no excuse to sacrifice safety for a little speed. That's what driving, motorcycles, boats, etc are for.
Why hook turn, BASE jump, hell skydive at all? Why go SCUBA diving? Ride motorcycles? Go white water rafting? In every sport you have different levels of risk. They are some mellow kayakers out there and there are a few setting world records for the highest waterfall riden over in a kayak. If they land wrong, they could be paralized or killed. Why not just go paddle down a calm river?
I love it when a skydiver calls me crazy.
Cause it's there.
Hook

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

But, basically, there are better and safer ways than doing hook turns. At this stage in the game, I'm not too interested in swooping, I'm trying to figure out the benefits of hook turns when they're so dangerous. If there's more ways of swooping than hooking, why do it? So many people get hurt because of it.

Exactly what part of skydiving do you think is safe?

[iynx 0]

True, put in that terms, it does sound like a whuffo's P.O.V.
But what I'm saying, isn't anything to the extreme. People have said there are other means by which one can gain sufficient speed to do swooping. From what I've been told, many of the injuries at the jump zones come from people trying to do hook turns while too low to the ground. I'm not saying that people shouldn't go fast, but if in two days, more people have gotten hurt doing hook turns while low than anything else reported, that's just dumb.
And in response to your sarcasm, if skydiving was so dangerous that perfectly good parachutes and skydivers were getting hurt about 2-3 times a day doing textbook/safe landings, I wouldn't be into the sport as it is.
But, hey, I'm really new to this, so I could be all wrong.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.

[iynx 0]

Right, skydiving may not be the safest thing, but there's ways that one can lower the chances of getting hurt. Just because you ride a motorcycle doesn't mean you should scream down the freeway as fast as you can. One should at least take some precautions when doing dangerous activities, no?
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.

[PhreeZone 20]

>And in response to your sarcasm, if skydiving was so dangerous that perfectly good parachutes and skydivers were getting hurt about 2-3 times a day doing textbook/safe landings, I wouldn't be into the sport as it is.
Talk to Wildblue on his broken leg... a nice landing from all accounts and it left him with like 5 pins or screws in the leg. One of the other jumpers at the DZ had a slighly hard landing that snaped her tibia and fibia. Shes got a couple of screws now too. One of the TM's has had his leg snapped when a tandem student fell on it during landing. Even a normal landing can bite you bad if one thing is slightly off...
If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will....

[Hooknswoop 19]

Sorry if I sounded sarcastic- didn't mean too.
Bill V. is correct, there are safer ways to generate more speed to swoop a canopy, but they don't generate as much speed as a hook turn.
Some of the low turn fatalities/injuries are from low turns that were not ment to be hook turns, they simply turned too low, for any number of reasons. Some of the fatalities/injuries are from people that don't know enough and either don't ask, or won't listen to good advice. I agree that there should be less, if not none, fatalities/injuries from a functional canopy. As somebody already mentioned, education and guidence can make the difference. it is possible to perform hook turns and never get injured. It is also possible to die from a single mis-executed hook turn. Genreally hook turns are under-estimated and personnal skill over-estimated. I get just as much, and sometimes more enjoyment out of flying a fast canoy as I do in freefall.
And to be honest, I look at some other sports (taking a kayak off a huge waterfall for example) and say "those guys are crazy". Whatever blows your hair back.
Hook

[skybytch 273]

Quote

And in response to your sarcasm, if skydiving was so dangerous that perfectly good parachutes and skydivers were getting hurt about 2-3 times a day doing textbook/safe landings, I wouldn't be into the sport as it is.

First off... Skydiving is not a safe sport. Period. You can do everything right - from conservative gear selection to only jumping solo (so you don't risk someone knocking you out in freefall) to only doing "textbook/safe" landings - and still end up seriously injured or dead. Shit happens. The best you can do is try to reduce the risks that you are taking to a level that you (and/or your family...) are comfortable with... but if you're going to jump, you need to have accepted the fact that it can hurt or kill you - even if you're the "safest" jumper on the dz.
I don't do swoop landings, but I do understand the attraction to it. A well executed high performance landing approach and the resulting "surf" is incredibly impressive to watch - and from the few "surfy" landings I've done I can tell it's got to be an incredible rush as well.
The problem with hook turns is not that they are inherently dangerous - it's that they are dangerous if done incorrectly. But so is RW, freeflying, skysurfing, camera flying, CRW... pretty much everything we do after we leave the airplane can kill us if we go about it the wrong way. The key to avoiding injury/death in any skydiving discipline is training. And imho that's where the current problem lies - too many jumpers are attempting high performance landings under canopies too small or too aggressive for their experience level, and they are doing it without the benefit of a structured learning environment (i.e. coaching from someone who is really good or attending one of the several canopy control schools now available).
Saying that hook turns are "dumb" or should be banned does nothing to improve the injury/fatality rate. Choosing to get good instruction before attempting them yourself, encouraging dz's/swoop godz/etc. to offer quality canopy control instruction, putting several hundred jumps on a conservatively sized and shaped canopy and learning to fly the shit out of it before downsizing.... these are the things that will bring "hook turn" injury and fatality rates down to a more reasonable level.
pull & flare,
lisa
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez

[iynx 0]

Right, and stuff like that is understandable. My statement was more along the lines of- if about 2-3 people a day were breaking legs and such from perfectly normal lands, then I probably wouldn't jump. Sorry to sound confusing, I didn't get much sleep last night.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.

[quade 4]

There's no law that says you HAVE to hook.
For instance, I'm changing my billing to;
"Paul Quade -- The World's Most Boring Skydiver"
I have a freekin' huge canopy. I play it pretty safe. I don't hook.
I also don't hold it against the folks that really know how to do it correctly.
I DO have a HUGE issue with people that give really bad advise and THINK they know what they're talking about when clearly they don't know which side the high pressure is on.
Ignorance kills.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[Jasmin 0]

On that note: I laugh when I hear many skydivers voice their P.O.V. on BASE jumpers (self included) it sounds exactly the same as whuffos' P.O.V. on skydivers!
"Why would anybody want to do that?"
"I like my feet on the ground!?"
"Oh that's too dangerous!"
If you wanna do it, fine. Just make sure you know what you're doing, cause theres a good chance you're going to f*** up bad (or someone else near you will) sooner rather than later. And that stands for BASE-jumping, grade 4+ kayaking, hot-line abseiling, hook turns, freeflying/big way RW without a helmet, and riding a motorbike.
Be considerate, minimise the effects on others!

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

My statement was more along the lines of- if about 2-3 people a day were breaking legs and such from perfectly normal lands, then I probably wouldn't jump.

How do you know they aren't? Usually fatalities are reported while injuries are often kept quiet.
You need to understand that this sport can kill you. You need to understand that if you're in this sport for any amount of time you will lose friends, and worse, you'll watch friends die right in front of you. These rules apply to everybody, remember, you're someones friend too.
Please don't kid yourself and think that there's anything even remotely safe about skydiving. Like Lisa said, you can do everything right and still die. Can you accept that?
I'm not suggesting that you or anyone else shouldn't skydive, but it's important to know the risks. After you've thought about all the ways this sport can kill or mame realize that there are probably 2 or 3 dozen other ways you haven't thought of.
Sorry if I sound harsh, but after Memorial Day weekend I'm a little sensitive when I think people don't fully understand what they're in for.
-
Jim

[iynx 0]

You said it well. I completely agree with you.
Also, in case anyone starts getting frustrated with me, I appologize for my ignorance, just tell me to be quiet for a while and I'll take the hint =P.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.

[iynx 0]

Point taken.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.

[skybytch 273]

Jimbo... I'm starting to get worried about you. You keep agreeing with me. pull & flare,
lisa
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda sez

[Jimbo 0]

Getting older and wiser I guess.
I'll make a point of fixing that!

[iynx 0]

Keep in mind, not only are you dealing with a skydiving newbie, you're dealing with a 16 year old skydiving newbie. Ignorance is a must on my part. I'd be failing my fellow teenagers if I didn't add some sort of ignorance to the fire. We teenagers are immortal, you know? Just look at how we drive. =)
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.

[billvon 2,991]

>Exactly what part of skydiving do you think is safe?
None; but then, neither is getting up in the morning.
There are ways to skydive safely and ways to skydive less safely - on a relative scale, of course. As a community we have decided that some things are just too dangerous. It is unsafe for a new jumper, with ten jumps, to do a 100 way, even if he is willing to accept the large risk that he will die. It is unsafe for a jumper to regularly open at 500 feet. It is unsafe for a jumper to not track after doing RW. And yes, even other skydivers, who agree that skydiving isn't safe to begin with, generally support the above.
The trick is in being safe _enough._ What's safe enough? Well, part of that is in the SIM. Most of those rules were written not because some guy thought they'd be cool, but because too many people were dying from low pulls or poor training or lack of correct gear.
The other part is up to you. If you want to jump a 1:1 Sabre, if you avoid high winds and badly maintained planes, if you jump only on small RW loads with very good people - your odds of jumping for a long time without injury are pretty high. If you want to push the limits on everything from canopy size to freefly group size, you may not live that long.
So is skydiving safe? No. But we should not let that fact blind us to the other, very real fact that it can be made relatively safe for us, and that, I think, is a good goal to pursue.
-bill von

[iynx 0]

Preach on, Bill. Well said.
Good judgement comes from experience, and experience?- well, that comes from poor judgement.