Are tight fits bad?

[Kalrigan 6]

I'm not asking about the really tight ones, you know the ones that manufacturers don't even recommend. Here is an example:

Aerodyne says on their sizing chart that an I4 will fit a 150 main but it's tight, and a 150 reserve with an AAD but it's tight. They do mention that it's Aerodyne canopies so let's say a Pilot and a Smart.

This got me curious, would having both fall under the "tight" category be a bad thing?

[mattjw916 2]

You won't enjoy packing a new "tight" main into a container with a "tight" reserve + an AAD.

Can you do it? Generally, yes if you are a skilled packer, live in a humid place, and your main is well-worn.

Otherwise prepare for yourself for frustration, excessive use of profanity, and paying to have someone pack for you.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Kalrigan 6]

So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct? Like let's say a PD143 for example?

[dragon2 2]

Kalrigan

So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct? Like let's say a PD143 for example?

You're going about this the wrong way.

Step 1: choose a reserve size appropriate for you
Step 2: choose a main canopy size appropriate for you
Step 3: choose a container that fits both these canopies + your body.

Aside from packing issues, overstuffing a container can lead to opening issues both of the main and of the reserve (!!) and can lead to damage to your containers. Been there, done that, bad idea all round (and expensive having to replace bags and flaps).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[mattjw916 2]

seconded...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[Kalrigan 6]

dragon2

***So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct? Like let's say a PD143 for example?

You're going about this the wrong way.

Step 1: choose a reserve size appropriate for you
Step 2: choose a main canopy size appropriate for you
Step 3: choose a container that fits both these canopies + your body.

Aside from packing issues, overstuffing a container can lead to opening issues both of the main and of the reserve (!!) and can lead to damage to your containers. Been there, done that, bad idea all round (and expensive having to replace bags and flaps).

Oh no you misunderstood me, I'm not going that way. I'm just learning and trying to understand how these things work and what's the better way to approach things. I'm shopping for rigs and this was something that caught my attention that I realized I don't completely understand so I figured I would ask.

[BIGUN 1,307]

dragon2

***So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct? Like let's say a PD143 for example?

You're going about this the wrong way.

Step 1: choose a reserve size appropriate for you
Step 2: choose a main canopy size appropriate for you
Step 3: choose a container that fits both these canopies + your body.

Aside from packing issues, overstuffing a container can lead to opening issues both of the main and of the reserve (!!) and can lead to damage to your containers. Been there, done that, bad idea all round (and expensive having to replace bags and flaps).

+3

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wmw999 2,444]

I'll go +4 on the advice, but assume that you're just out there looking at used rigs and seeing what's available.

If you're searching, you're best off doing a search on the main size that you're looking for. Don't search for a size down, because then you'll just jump it (you know you will ).

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[catyduck 0]

I think I get what you're asking. To use the example given:

An Icon I4 is a tight or full fit with a 150 Smart reserve and a 150 9-cell main, says Aerodyne.

SO if your already-chosen combination of canopies is a Smart 150 and, say, a Sabre2 150, would you be better off choosing an I5 (or another manufacturer)?

If you had chosen a similarly-sized reserve that packs a bit smaller (Tempo 150, PD143), would it make the fit in the I4 less tight/safer?

[riggerrob 643]

dragon2

***So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct? Like let's say a PD143 for example?

You're going about this the wrong way.

Step 1: choose a reserve size appropriate for you
Step 2: choose a main canopy size appropriate for you
Step 3: choose a container that fits both these canopies + your body.

Aside from packing issues, overstuffing a container can lead to opening issues both of the main and of the reserve (!!) and can lead to damage to your containers. Been there, done that, bad idea all round (and expensive having to replace bags and flaps).

..............................................................................

Paying a Master Rigger $50 per hour to repair distorted grommets, cracked stiffeners, torn flaps, closing pins bent in weird and wonderful directions, etc. .......

[catyduck 0]

dragon2

Aside from packing issues, overstuffing a container can lead to opening issues both of the main and of the reserve (!!) and can lead to damage to your containers. Been there, done that, bad idea all round (and expensive having to replace bags and flaps).

riggerrob

Paying a Master Rigger $50 per hour to repair distorted grommets, cracked stiffeners, torn flaps, closing pins bent in weird and wonderful directions, etc. .......

Are these problems linked to overstuffed containers, i.e., BEYOND the manufacturers' specifications? Or could they result from prolonged use with a "tight"-fitting main and/or "tight" reserve?

[wmw999 2,444]

Cracked stiffeners can definitely result from containers that aren't overstuffed. I've had to replace a stiffener, and mine is never overstuffed.

One thing to consider is that a somewhat full container is far more difficult for a novice packer to pack, than it is for an experienced packer. Technique makes a big difference. And while a professional packer has technique, an owner will nearly always take more care with their own gear.

Difficulties in container opening I haven't experienced, but there are threads out there about that.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[FataMorgana 0]

My take on this would be along the following lines.
Almost any process design by human mind ( incudind oppening
of the container) operates based on a specific combination of so called operating parameters (be it the length of the closing loop, fullness of the main or reserve tray to mention the most obvious ones). Typically there are interactions between parameters involved in the execution of the process and their optimal operating ranges. One would assume that manufacturers would test ranges acceptable for all crucial parameters.
It is not certain however that all interactions between parameters involved in the process have been identified and therefore thoroughly
tested. Hence, in my opinion, the general recommendations within no
specifics on how to proceed outside of the optimal ranges.
Why would anyone want to operate the life saving device
outside of its optimum operating ranges? Because money wise it makes
more sense to cover 2-3 sizes of the main with one container.
This is not a sensible answer in my book

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.

Stephen Hawking

[Kalrigan 6]

catyduck

I think I get what you're asking. To use the example given:

An Icon I4 is a tight or full fit with a 150 Smart reserve and a 150 9-cell main, says Aerodyne.

SO if your already-chosen combination of canopies is a Smart 150 and, say, a Sabre2 150, would you be better off choosing an I5 (or another manufacturer)?

If you had chosen a similarly-sized reserve that packs a bit smaller (Tempo 150, PD143), would it make the fit in the I4 less tight/safer?

Yes that's pretty much what I was wondering. Just how bad if it to have both the main and reserve fall under tight, which is still ok in the manufacturer's chart. Is it ok for both to fall under tight or is it only allowed for one of them to be?

[davelepka 4]

Quote

So in a situation like this, you're better off going with a smaller main or reserve correct?

No. Just to be clear, the correct answer is to go with a larger container. Your container size does not effect your safety when it comes to landing your parachute, but your canopy size certainly does. Based on that, safe canopy sizing is choice one, and everything else comes after.

In terms of 'tight' fits, my question would be why would you want either one to be 'tight'? It makes the rig harder (aka less comfortable) and harder to pack for your and your rigger.

There has also been some speculation that too tight of a container has led to reserve PC hesitations or other deployment problems. Some of the incidents where an AAD has fired but the canopy did not deploy in time have been on rigs with tight fitting main/reserve canopies.

[gowlerk 2,190]

Quote

Yes that's pretty much what I was wondering. Just how bad if it to have both the main and reserve fall under tight, which is still ok in the manufacturer's chart. Is it ok for both to fall under tight or is it only allowed for one of them to be?

Yes, it is "ok" to do this. It is what most people do when ordering new gear these days. And most container manufacturers will recommend this combo if you ask them. Generally when they call it "full" that is your warning not to go any larger.


If you are a new packer and you have a new main canopy to pack into it you will wish you had a larger container. I've seen many people in this situation just give up and hire a packer, at least until the canopy is broken in. If possible give yourself a break and avoid the "full" container. But it is not unsafe to fill it to the top end of the recommendation. If in doubt consult Aerodyne.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Kalrigan

I'm not asking about the really tight ones, you know the ones that manufacturers don't even recommend. Here is an example:

Aerodyne says on their sizing chart that an I4 will fit a 150 main but it's tight, and a 150 reserve with an AAD but it's tight. They do mention that it's Aerodyne canopies so let's say a Pilot and a Smart.

This got me curious, would having both fall under the "tight" category be a bad thing?

It depends on your goals.

A rig which packs softer is more comfortable in the plane.

A rig which packs tight is as small and therefore fashionable as possible, where the ideal is something the size of a kindergartner's backpack.

A rig with a tight main compartment should be more tolerable of down-sizing; although if you're buying used gear that doesn't matter because you can spend about the same on depreciation regardless of how many mains and containers you go through.

A rig which is more accommodating takes less skill to get the main into its deployment bag.

[Alexg3265 0]

Kalrigan

I'm not asking about the really tight ones, you know the ones that manufacturers don't even recommend. Here is an example:

Aerodyne says on their sizing chart that an I4 will fit a 150 main but it's tight, and a 150 reserve with an AAD but it's tight. They do mention that it's Aerodyne canopies so let's say a Pilot and a Smart.

This got me curious, would having both fall under the "tight" category be a bad thing?

My wife has an I-4 brand new and a hornet 150 in it right this second, but about to put a safire2-139 in it. The 150 fits fine. its older so easy to pack now and it has room to spare. I could sqeeze a 160 in it no problem. I currently have an I-5 with a safire2 159 in it and it wont take anything smaller and not have too much wiggle room. I can almost line up the grommets without threading the closing loop. Hope this helps on sizing for the real world, not a chart. My canopy has 40 jumps on it by the way.

I was that kid jumping out if his tree house with a bed sheet. My dad wouldn't let me use the ladder to try the roof...

[Kalrigan 6]

Awesome, thanks for the information guys.

Alexg3265

***I'm not asking about the really tight ones, you know the ones that manufacturers don't even recommend. Here is an example:

Aerodyne says on their sizing chart that an I4 will fit a 150 main but it's tight, and a 150 reserve with an AAD but it's tight. They do mention that it's Aerodyne canopies so let's say a Pilot and a Smart.

This got me curious, would having both fall under the "tight" category be a bad thing?

My wife has an I-4 brand new and a hornet 150 in it right this second, but about to put a safire2-139 in it. The 150 fits fine. its older so easy to pack now and it has room to spare. I could sqeeze a 160 in it no problem. I currently have an I-5 with a safire2 159 in it and it wont take anything smaller and not have too much wiggle room. I can almost line up the grommets without threading the closing loop. Hope this helps on sizing for the real world, not a chart. My canopy has 40 jumps on it by the way.

Interesting. What kind and size of reserve does your wife fly?

[StoppieJoe 7]

gowlerk

Quote

Yes that's pretty much what I was wondering. Just how bad if it to have both the main and reserve fall under tight, which is still ok in the manufacturer's chart. Is it ok for both to fall under tight or is it only allowed for one of them to be?

Yes, it is "ok" to do this. It is what most people do when ordering new gear these days. And most container manufacturers will recommend this combo if you ask them. Generally when they call it "full" that is your warning not to go any larger.


If you are a new packer and you have a new main canopy to pack into it you will wish you had a larger container. I've seen many people in this situation just give up and hire a packer, at least until the canopy is broken in. If possible give yourself a break and avoid the "full" container. But it is not unsafe to fill it to the top end of the recommendation. If in doubt consult Aerodyne.

My question here is this: if your reserve isnt stuffed to “full” could you get away with one size bigger than “full” in the main tray. For example: a vector v349 with an OP193 (which manufacturer says is “standard” not “full”) would it be unsafe or damage the container putting a Sabre 2 190(which is one size bigger than ”full”) in it for <50 jumps?

Carpe Diem, Even if it kills me -- "Dead Poet's Society"

"Are you getting into trouble over there?" --- "Nothing that I'm going to admit to!"
____________________________________

[Westerly 61]

StoppieJoe

***

Quote

Yes that's pretty much what I was wondering. Just how bad if it to have both the main and reserve fall under tight, which is still ok in the manufacturer's chart. Is it ok for both to fall under tight or is it only allowed for one of them to be?

Yes, it is "ok" to do this. It is what most people do when ordering new gear these days. And most container manufacturers will recommend this combo if you ask them. Generally when they call it "full" that is your warning not to go any larger.


If you are a new packer and you have a new main canopy to pack into it you will wish you had a larger container. I've seen many people in this situation just give up and hire a packer, at least until the canopy is broken in. If possible give yourself a break and avoid the "full" container. But it is not unsafe to fill it to the top end of the recommendation. If in doubt consult Aerodyne.

My question here is this: if your reserve isnt stuffed to “full” could you get away with one size bigger than “full” in the main tray. For example: a vector v349 with an OP193 (which manufacturer says is “standard” not “full”) would it be unsafe or damage the container putting a Sabre 2 190(which is one size bigger than ”full”) in it for <50 jumps?

I would say no, you should not try to pack in a canopy that is one size larger than the already largest size the manufacturer recommends. I've seen people do it, and then they complain because the rig is really hard to close, it looks like crap and it's uncomfortable. If you over stuff the rig, the backpad is going to belly out and push on your back. That is not very comfortable. It will also bow out the sizes of the container and it will look like crap.

Buy the recommended size container for what you're flying. If you fly a 150, buy a container designed for a 150. I dont know why people have such a hard-on for buying the smallest possible container. It looks like crap, it's uncomfortable and it just makes your day harder when it comes time to pack. There are also some safety implications in choosing the wrong sized gear as well.

If you want a smaller container, buy an LPV main and reserve. They are getting pretty good at making low pack mains.

[StoppieJoe 7]

Westerly

******

Quote

Yes that's pretty much what I was wondering. Just how bad if it to have both the main and reserve fall under tight, which is still ok in the manufacturer's chart. Is it ok for both to fall under tight or is it only allowed for one of them to be?

Yes, it is "ok" to do this. It is what most people do when ordering new gear these days. And most container manufacturers will recommend this combo if you ask them. Generally when they call it "full" that is your warning not to go any larger.


If you are a new packer and you have a new main canopy to pack into it you will wish you had a larger container. I've seen many people in this situation just give up and hire a packer, at least until the canopy is broken in. If possible give yourself a break and avoid the "full" container. But it is not unsafe to fill it to the top end of the recommendation. If in doubt consult Aerodyne.

My question here is this: if your reserve isnt stuffed to “full” could you get away with one size bigger than “full” in the main tray. For example: a vector v349 with an OP193 (which manufacturer says is “standard” not “full”) would it be unsafe or damage the container putting a Sabre 2 190(which is one size bigger than ”full”) in it for
I would say no, you should not try to pack in a canopy that is one size larger than the already largest size the manufacturer recommends. I've seen people do it, and then they complain because the rig is really hard to close, it looks like crap and it's uncomfortable. If you over stuff the rig, the backpad is going to belly out and push on your back. That is not very comfortable. It will also bow out the sizes of the container and it will look like crap.

Buy the recommended size container for what you're flying. If you fly a 150, buy a container designed for a 150. I dont know why people have such a hard-on for buying the smallest possible container. It looks like crap, it's uncomfortable and it just makes your day harder when it comes time to pack. There are also some safety implications in choosing the wrong sized gear as well.

The reason I bought this container is because I was planning on buying a pulse 190 to put into it that way I could use this container all the way from 190 to elliptical 150 (effectively 4 steps in my canopy progression) making this container last a lot of jumps. The problem I’m running into is that I hate the pulse and have no desire in buying one. I want to put like 25-30 more jumps on the Sabre 2 190 before I go to a 170. I guess I’m going to keep renting until I am ready for the 170

Carpe Diem, Even if it kills me -- "Dead Poet's Society"

"Are you getting into trouble over there?" --- "Nothing that I'm going to admit to!"
____________________________________

[Westerly 61]

You could spend two days and just work on landings and canopy progression. Go do 20 hop and pops over the weekend and that might help and get you the most of your rental money.

[billvon 2,990]

Quote

My question here is this: if your reserve isnt stuffed to “full” could you get away with one size bigger than “full” in the main tray. For example: a vector v349 with an OP193 (which manufacturer says is “standard” not “full”) would it be unsafe or damage the container putting a Sabre 2 190(which is one size bigger than ”full”) in it for <50 jumps?

Can you 'get away with it?' Probably. If you can close the container safely (i.e. without a tool, and with the flaps enclosing the bag and lines fully) then it will generally work OK. It is difficult to get such a tight closing loop (without tools) that it results in a container lock.

The risks you face are:

1) Damage to the container. You risk damaging grommets, stiffeners and flap closing devices. And such repairs are expensive.

2) Poor openings. If the machinations you have to go through to get the thing in the bag are extreme, then you are more likely to have problems with openings (due to distortion/mishandling of the pack job.)

Also, a loose reserve does not equate to more room in the main. In general, it just means a looser or tighter reserve container. Your cypres is between them anyway, and that's not all that flexible.

[StoppieJoe 7]

So.... I did it. And now I will say from this experience: not a good idea for a vector. It closed fine and looked fine and pin pressure was okay but it was solid and tight. Did a hop n pop and gave it an 8 second delay before I pitched. I had a PC in tow AFTER the container opened. It was just stuck in the container. took 2 elbows to the side of the rig to get it out. After that it was a beautiful opening but with that much of a hesitation, I’m not jumpin it again until I have a 170 to put into it.

Carpe Diem, Even if it kills me -- "Dead Poet's Society"

"Are you getting into trouble over there?" --- "Nothing that I'm going to admit to!"
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