New Rigger Equipment

[riggerrob 643]

"...
18-inch-long piece of 1 inch Pile Velcro
- You don't need 2 pieces of velcro with flag on each one for the reserve freebag. A single works much better. Out in the field I've even used Velcro toggles. ..."

...................................................................................

Hint: if you sew the pile Velcro onto your (Cypres-brand) temporary pin, it will simplify tool-count.

[hookitt 1]

riggerrob

"...
18-inch-long piece of 1 inch Pile Velcro
- You don't need 2 pieces of velcro with flag on each one for the reserve freebag. A single works much better. Out in the field I've even used Velcro toggles. ..."

...................................................................................

Hint: if you sew the pile Velcro onto your (Cypres-brand) temporary pin, it will simplify tool-count.

I like this one. That's a good hint. Thanks!

Yeah, you're right the the knot definitely works. I show both methods to people who want to know, and I use it in a pinch. My preference is the ring or rapide, or anything like it for the locking pull up cord. I find it very simple to manipulate with one hand when the bag is in the container rather than yanking the knot out.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[mjosparky 4]

Down load this and look at page 131. You pick and choose what you think you will need. Start out small and trust me you end up going big.

Sparky

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aircraft/media/FAA-H-8083-17.pdf

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Only a handful have passed DeWolf's course coming in cold ... and they all admitted that they would have much been much wiser to have packed most of the 20 reserves (required by the FAA) before the start of the course.

Really!
Only a handful have passed coming in cold???

Since I personally have been instructing there for 20 plus years and you were never there at any time during these years, I would have to strongly disagree with you.

We work harder with the students that are lagging, that is for sure, but we always seem to catch them up to the rest of the class.
The problem is that sometimes the ones lagging are ones that have had previous training elsewhere and cannot seem to get of of that one way of doing things.

For example, clamps.

They are not allowed to be used on certain canopies or it voids the TSO.

We do not teach their use as such and some of these guys that use them take longer to learn packing without them than say someone that never used them.

This come from someone that also is a FAA DPRE examiner and trained people from all of the world for many years.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[RiggerLee 61]

This should almost be a separate thread. As you can see there are differences in opinion. When you see us arguing like this just go and get your self some popcorn.

As to how many riggers have been trained in courses, I'd say that varied by area of the country. Back when it was just Dewolf doing this once or twice a year I'd say that you were wrong. Now with these courses seeming to be popping up all over it might have changed. Around here... I can only think of one rigger who actually went off to a course. And oddly enough he just happened to be there and took it on a whim. And he fucking passed. It was incredible, but he's bright guy. There have been a few that moved here over the years who went through courses but traditionally we've always raised our own. And we have some pretty strong blood lines descended from some very good old school riggers who planted there seeds here in Texas.

As to the quality of the courses. No one is questioning their competency. No one is questioning their integrity. There is no question as to whether their students meet the qualifications for or the requirements of the test. What I do question is the level of ambition of the concept of such a course. It's not about the rules. As I see it the rules lay out the bare, the very minimum, requirements. They do their best to set a standard but as I see it there is an assumption of a wider base of knowledge that really can not qualified in a list of requirements. And it's that range and depth of experience that I do not think can be imparted in such a short course. I guess it's a question of how riggerly you expect your Senior riggers to be.

Master and Senior riggers. He's right to correct me as to the requirements. There are actually a number of ways that you can fulfill them and places where you can get the experience. I wasn't referring to the legal qualifications for the certificate. I was trying to describe the true difference between the two and the difference between the rule and the reality of what we do. There is a wide variation in competency do to the variation in back ground. I've seen "Master" riggers that I felt were far less knowledgeable then some "Senior" riggers I know. I've seen master riggers that can't sew to save their lives and would have no business doing major repairs. This is an example of how "by the rule" some one can qualify with out really being qualified. There are people that would say that master rigger work should be done by a master rigger. I've always argued against this. If that were the case how would the said master rigger ever learn how to do this kind of work? The FAR's are very specific regarding a master riggers authority to supervise all work that he is qualified for under his rating. It's kind of over looked but I see that as his primary job.

And you'll get a good laugh out of this. It's been a long standing joke, but I'm a Senior rigger. I'm a SENIOR rigger. And to be absolutely honest I'm not sure I qualify to be a Master rigger. Yes I hold two ratings. We had seat packs come in all the time back at the adventure loft. I did work at the packing table but I was always more valuable at the sewing machine. I would have to dig out old log books and try to count things up. But even if I could find my old log books I'm not sure I have 100 seat packs in them. And frankly it was never a priority. As long as you have at least one Master rigger around to sign off paper work why do you need to up grade? So after 20 odd years of working actively in the industry I do not consider my self qualified to be a master rigger. That should give some idea of my standards for the industry.

And as far as you taking this course. You should go for it. You should do every thing you can before you get there but you should go for it. This course is for you. It's the reason why it should exist. I believe that it is an imperfect solution but every one here will do what ever they can to help you both before and after the course. And you will need help but we will support you. The bottom line is you need a rigger there where you are. If there isn't one to learn from then you'll have to learn your self. And with luck you can found your own lineage of riggers that will grow and flourish in that part of the country.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[kingbunky 3]

knee pads. and don't get a cheap pair either. i found that volleyball pads work nice, fabric covered padding and a nice wide elastic to hold it in place.

i took the deWolfe course, and i think he preferred that you have no prior packing experience. that way you didn't have to unlearn one method to learn his.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[Deisel 38]

This has turned out to be quite an informative discussion.

So now let me try and refine the question that you all have been actually answering. Given the following facts, what would you all suggest would be the best use of my time?

- the course starts on 17 January.
- I have a full time job.
- the nearest loft is about 2 hours away (at Skydive Orange).
- I do not have a reserve to practice with.
- I currently have all the relevant books from Dave D.

Any recommendations would be welcomed.

D

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[JerryBaumchen 1,373]

Hi Deisel,

Quote

I do not have a reserve to practice with.

Try to find a 'well-worn' Vector II ( or similar ) & some old reserve and start packing. Get the manual and follow it as best as you can.

I have a very well-worn Raven I that you can have for the shipping. It is too far gone for any packing that would need to have a seal on it, but it would be OK for practising.

The other stuff I cannot help you with.

JerryBaumchen

[theonlyski 8]

JerryBaumchen

Try to find a 'well-worn' Vector II ( or similar ) & some old reserve and start packing. Get the manual and follow it as best as you can.

Funny story about that. My DPRE handed me an old Vector II and a Vector 3 manual... I didn't fall for it. Sneaky guy...

I'd say another thing to do is read and try to understand a lot of the manuals, writing questions down along the way. This way you end up with a list of things to ask during the course and it fills in the blanks (though it's probably covered in the course anyways, it wouldn't hurt).

If you've got no practice packing reserves and nobody that can show you the ropes, getting one and packing it probably isn't going to be the best use of your time IMO, you'll just pick up bad habits that they'll need to get rid of in the course.

Find a sewing machine on craigslist... ANY machine, preferably a cheap one... Learn how it works, practice going slow and keeping control. The ones in the course are going to be different, but the basics still help quite a bit. It's also great if you have to troubleshoot a little and figure out simple tension and timing issues.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[diver90 0]

to know what you should work on, email your DPRE, he will answer your questions the best considering HE is the one putting on the course, not these other guys who have their ratings (no offense fellas)

I did my rating through Simon Wade out of Boulder City, whenever I had a question about the upcoming course he replied to my E-mail promptly and accurately, I went in cold for the most part, I had packed one square reserve, but countless mains, and I did quite well but I am a quick learner, and it was a one on one course so I was the only one working with Simon during that week

after my course with him was done he gave me his email and his cell number, if I EVER have a single question, I can call him up and learn something new right then and there, I'm also lucky enough to live about 10 minutes away from a great master rigger who teaches me a shitload every time I go visit him for a late night repack or harness repair

I went the lazy and expensive route, I went to para-gear, and ordered their complete riggers toolkit and bag, I have everything I need and then some, I also got a low-end straight stitch and zig zag machine for just under a grand, and I practice patches constantly (you'd be surprised what riggers have in their basement that they're willing to ship off to a new rigger to help them out on their journey, I've got two great condition military rigs that were dropped off years ago and never picked up)

BUT like I said, just call or email your DPRE, he will be the best person to answer your questions, and if he brushes you off or doesn't seem to have the time (I've heard some DPRE's are like this) then you might wanna find somebody else to go see for your rating

[piisfish 140]

theonlyski

It's also great if you have to troubleshoot a little and figure out simple tension and timing issues.

for some pretty good troubleshooting info : http://usapr.com/Pages/Posts/ViewPost.aspx?ID=1

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Southern_Man 0]

Since you are going to the DeWulf course you will not need to bring any equipment.

Dave will also sell you any of the equipment or tools that they use in the course (the entire bag, or any part thereof).

His prices are very competitive.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[theonlyski 8]

NOW YOU TELL ME??????


Son of a...

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[riggerrob 643]

Thanks for correcting me.
The last Senior Rigger Course - that I taught - one skydiver arrived without packing any reserves beforehand and he was the only candidate that failed.
I have seen the same problem on several previous rigger courses.

[kingbunky 3]

study the hell out of the sample tests and read all the testing material that you got from Dave. there are quite a few questions on the test about old canopy construction methods, and other general weirdness that you won't see on modern gear, and it covered only briefly during the course, but the FAA thinks it's important to know. you can take the test more than once if needed, but it gets expensive.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[leon.hill 1]

masterrigger1

***


For example, clamps.

They are not allowed to be used on certain canopies or it voids the TSO.


MEL

Could you explain this a little further? I don't personally use them, but I do know some riggers that do and never heard of them "voiding" a TSO.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

For example, clamps.

They are not allowed to be used on certain canopies or it voids the TSO.


MEL

Could you explain this a little further? I don't personally use them, but I do know some riggers that do and never heard of them "voiding" a TSO.

Sure.

Flight Concepts (Was Glide Path previously) is just one manufacturer that forbids the use of clamps on their products.

Clamping has been known to damage the fabric.

In my own opinion, clamping a parachute is about the dumbest thing anyone every came up with in the first place.
The reason why is that a rigger inspects the canopy for damage, then flakes and folds the canopy, then attaches a mechanical clamping device to the very fabric that was previously inspected, but will not inspect it again after clamping.


MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[leon.hill 1]

Thanks Mel…

Although, After breifly reading one of the reserve manuals from Flight Concepts, it states:

DO NOT USE ANY TYPE OF CLAMPS TO TEST, PACK OR MAINTAIN THIS PARACHUTE SYSTEM. PLACING CLAMPS ON PARACHUTES IS DETRIMENTAL TO THE PARACHUTE FABRIC.

I agree that clamps "could" be detrimental, but nowhere does it state it voids the TSO. I would like to learn more about this, if in fact i does void a TSO on Flight Concepts reserves and other manufacturers that have made the same statement.

I will continue to not use clamps, one less thing I have to account for after packing.

[gowlerk 2,216]

Quote

Flight Concepts (Was Glide Path previously) is just one manufacturer that forbids the use of clamps on their products.

I am aware of this. But since you use the wording "just one" I am wondering if there are others that you know of? I do use clamps, I was trained to use clamps. I find them helpful, but not strictly necessary. I've never seen anyone hang a canopy for inspection without using clamps, is this allowed?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

For example, clamps.

They are not allowed to be used on certain canopies or it voids the TSO.

We do not teach their use as such and some of these guys that use them take longer to learn packing without them than say someone that never used them.

This come from someone that also is a FAA DPRE examiner and trained people from all of the world for many years.

MEL

And on the other hand there manufactures that specify the use of clamps. When there is a conflict between what the canopy manufacture says and what the container/harness manufacture says you are to follow the container/harness manufactures instructions. See attachments.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JerryBaumchen 1,373]

Hi Mike,

From one of your links:

Quote

!! WARNING !! : T-Bars or "Positive Leverage Closing Devices" are prohibited.
Under no circumstances are T-Bars to be used when packing TALON 2 containers.
These tools can damage containers and cause impossible ripcord pull forces.

Yet at this year's Symposium, their own employee was using a T-handle to crank down on the container.



JerryBaumchen

[leon.hill 1]

So, it says "recommended" tool list, we could split hairs all day on what to use and not to use. Crap, the photo shows 5 clamps and the list directly above it says 4. The T-handle issue is mentioned in several manuals other than the Talon 2, and says that if it is used, to use it with caution, excess forces, etc. Verbage in manuals from civilian manufacturers to military systems leaves a lot to be desired and varies greatly from one version to the next and leaves a lot of room for interpretation.

And again, voiding a TSO, where does it say this? The reference used earlier didn't say it voided the TSO, just that it is not to be done.

[riggerrob 643]

The primary reason that Free Flight Enterprises says to not use clamps - on Preserve canopies - is that FFE was one of the few manufacturers that never used acidic mesh, ergo FFE says that testing Preserves with bromocreasol or tensioned clamps is worse than a waste of time.
Extensive pull-testing does weaken canopy fabric.

[riggerrob 643]

When you are learning to pack, try to progress from the easiest to the most difficult.

Sport mains
BASE
Pilot Emergency Parachute containing a square canopy
1-pin sport reserve - medium density
1-pin sport reserve - tight
Javelin
2-pin sport reserve - Strong Tandem
Pop-Top with a square reserve and Cypres
round reserve into a 2-pin PEP (e.g. Softie)
round reserve into a long PEP (40 inch long)
round reserve into a seat-type PEP
round reserve, with a 2-byte diaper into a Pop-Top seat PEP

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

And again, voiding a TSO, where does it say this? The reference used earlier didn't say it voided the TSO, just that it is not to be done.

Did you read what I posted? I didn’t say anything about voiding the TSO. In post #29 masterrigger1 said…..

Quote

For example, clamps.

They are not allowed to be used on certain canopies or it voids the TSO.

Go back and re-read his post and my response to it.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals