Flight Line check requirements (Was:) Fatality - Bridlington U.K.

[miniskydiver 0]

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For example you can have a jm on a load of tandems,the jm cant gear check them if he is not tandem rated.

There is no rule against a qualified JM checking a tandem instructor. Students must be checked by an appropriate instructor, but the rule does not apply to the instructors themselves. Having said that, I imagine most JMs would feel uncomfortable checking out a TI and many TIs insist that another TI checks them out.

In response to the responsibility of the JM, the Ops Manual says "The JM is responsible for ensuring that all parachutists below FAI ‘B’ Certificate (Red) on board have been checked." The question is, how far does this responsibility go? When I JM I make sure everyone's signed for, but I don't check all of the A certs myself.

[Yossarian 0]

i think it extends only so far as making sure that they have been signed for, Ive never been anywhere or heard of anywhere where the JM is expected to check anyone at all, just the manifest sheet to make sure it has a signature next to every name.

[miniskydiver 0]

Yossarian, I agree with you.

Each DZ has their own system for flight line checking. At mine everyone needs to be signed off by an appropriately qualified flight line checker. The JM then checks that everyone has a signature.

I've been to other DZs where only the JM has to sign for the load. They still have to make sure everyone has been checked, normally by asking "everyone checked?".

An advantage of the "everyone must get signed individually" system is that, in a worst case scenario, it's possible to track, not only the JM, but the flight line checker as well.

IMO, as long as the JM has ensured everyone has been checked then they've upheld their responsibilities.

[Scoop 0]

Hello Tony, couple of Headcorn jumpers come out the woodwork I see. Hope you're alright...

I have to laugh at the amount of legislation and beuracracy. How ridiculous is it that you need an audit trail of whos been checked out by who and who has permission to check someone else out. In my mind, if your a licenced parachutist you take your own chances. I can understand the need for students or those using rented club kit to be inspected as an arse covering exercise but I'd much rather pay my money, take my chances and jump. I love jumping in Spain, no nonsense. No checking to make sure you got the right amount of jumps for the wind hold, no gear checks. No making sure you got the right canopy or petty qualification like FS1 etc. Noone to say you shouldnt be wearing that full face helmet or that your goggles are too dark for the sunset load (Andy ) You look out for yourself and whatever buddies you happen to be jumping with, which is how it should be. If idiots want to do stupid things and cause themselves injury or worse let them. (I am not referring to the original incident when I say this but a continuation from the threads development) This sport is supposed to be about freedom

[Taffy 0]

Which is fine untill one of those idiots causes you injury, but personal responsibility is always a good thing.

If there's someone on my load doing something they aren't ready for I'd like to know about it, before they loose track of surroundings and end up in my airspace, before or after opening.

And of course if it all goes wrong and you don't mind the rest of the dropzone still has to sort the resulting big mess out. Sorry if it's selfish but I prefer my jumping days to not be marred by a frap.

Sky Pikey

[IsleOfAvalon 0]

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You look out for yourself and whatever buddies you happen to be jumping with, which is how it should be.

I don't mean to sound harsh but you've demonstrated in your post that you don't have sufficient knowledge or understanding to actually do this!

With the insurance situation, skydiving in the UK is hanging in the balance. Fatalities/accidents that occur because people "pay their money, take their chances and jump" will only make the insurance situation worse.

[Scoop 0]

Agreed if it presents a danger to others like an 8 way of novices but I'd hope common sense would prevail and it would never happen in the first place. But I know thats fantasy land. Personal responsibility means, to me, not only taking responsibility for your actions but identifying your personal limits too.

Most of it is ridiculous though. By (local) regulations, at HPC for example, I should have a radio still Never mind that since AFF Lv 2 I was left to get on with it and never heard a word from anybody. 2 non FS1 jumpers, who are otherwise perfectly safe and aware in freefall aren't allowed to jump together, thats stupid too. A lot of regulations are nothing more than ACEs (Arse Covering Exercises) and I'm sick of it. I have it all the while I'm at work and jumping is my release (although its a bit slower than I'd like at the moment)

[Scoop 0]

You're right in that I couldn't inspect a rig. But I can look at my own rig and double check things for my buddy. Are the flaps/tucktabs closed, is the bridle/PC exposed, are the pins safe, chest strap done up properly, helmet buckle fastened etc etc. I just find it sad that its all so formal with people signing for each other and stuff

[Taffy 0]

And if those 2 jumpers are so good then why not get the ratings?

I don't remember being nearly as aware and good as I thought I was with that much experiance though.

There's always WARP students who could swear they were falling down the tube as they zoom backwards into the distance or track away and end up going a few meters.

The more you do the more you realise there is still to know and do before you're any good (I definately aint got there yet)

Sky Pikey

[Taffy 0]

Oh and the radio thing does get a little silly with deaf students/jumpers, but it is a dam busy runway. If no one says anything it usually means you doing alright - if it aint broke.........don't try and confuse them whilst they're still in the air

Sky Pikey

[Scoop 0]

OK, I can see that actually. But when a ticket is the ridiculous price it is and some sad tosser wants you to pay their jump ticket plus coaching fee I'm not interested. Looking at £50+ a jump I know I'll have to do it one day though. Just not in the UK and definately not in the South East

[IsleOfAvalon 0]

I was actually referring to the fact that you think it's beurocracy that people are conscious about the appropriateness of canopy sizes and weather conditions. This to me shows a total lack of understanding of what is important in skydiving (i.e. doing everything you can to reduce the risk & stay alive, therefore keeping it fun)

I know that skydiving is meant to be a release from the everyday strains of work etc. However, there are some fundamental things that you have to stop and consider in order to stay in one piece. Given the nature of the sport, we all have responsibility to each other (not just ourselves) so unfortunatley individuals aren't in the position to decide "I'll pay my money and take the chance".

Enjoying the freedom of less restricted rules in other countries is fine (I do it too ) but just make sure you have an understanding of why the rules are there in the first place. (no-one wants to see a fellow jumper get hurt)

[Taffy 0]

Nice opinion of UK jumpers! I've never known WARP coaches to make money. Thought the deal was usually slot and pack job paid for don't know what all dz's do.

Sky Pikey

[Taffy 0]

Anyway TRUCE! Back to the point

Sky Pikey

[mr2mk1g 10]

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No way can you check and be held responsible for all A lic jumpers on that load to have had their AAD's visually checked.

But they are though. That's what the regs say. The JM is "responsible". That doesn't mean you have to have physically done the check yourself, but it does mean you carry the can if you rely on someone else to do it for you.

How much reliance a JM puts on other people is a question for the JM alone. If they are willing to trust Mr. X when they say "yeah he's checked" then that's fine, (and lets face it, we're all know each other so 90% of the time that's just fine).

But at the end of the day, it is the JM who ends up having to make a statement to the Coroner about what they did and did not do. It doesn't matter how much you dance up and down and complain "but, but I was busy and it was a back-to-back load and they only asked me as I was going out to the plane". The ops manual says the JM is responsible, thus they are the ones left holding the can when the shit hits the fan.

The guy who did the actual check might be there with you, but as JM you are automatically going to be someone the Coroner is going to want to hear from, because he has the regs in front of him and he can see they say “the JM is responsible”.

Yes this is an onerous requirement and you’re right, if it were like that there would be a lack of people putting themselves forward for the role. But it is like that, and it's merely the complete ignorance of 90% of skydivers out there about just how onerous the requirements of a JM are which keeps flight lines turning in this country.

If people really knew just what they were getting themselves in to you'd have a lot fewer people willing to do it unpaid.