Deyan 36 #1 November 18, 2013 So my question is: "How much is too much"? Have you grounded any and how bad did they look? We have Because of wear, and because of broken elastic."My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peter.draper 0 #2 November 18, 2013 I haven't grounded any yet, but wouldn't hesitate to if they looked like that. This "soft" ripcord was a dumb idea when introduced, and just another example of a solution looking for a problem. Kudos for doing your job properly!!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #3 November 18, 2013 It's not a dumb idea at all. And it's not a new one ether. Others have done the same thing in the past. It is in fact an out standing innovation. It is much cheaper to produce. He is no longer dependent on an out side contractor, capewell. There were problems with pins and this basically eliminates them. They do wear which means he gets to sell replacement parts, $$$. And he can charge more for them! $$$$. It's one of his biggest cues sence the three ring! And you bought the fucking thing! Now you're going to buy another one! I rest my case. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #4 November 18, 2013 Please remember that I used Spectra ripcords for over 10 years on Sigma mains, where they were pulled on EVERY jump, before I started using them on reserves. There have been No failures that I know of. People often get over 1,000 uses out of them between replacement. Secondly, in real life, the vast majority of reserve ripcord pins are pulled by RSL's, which are not stainless steel, and are often a piece of nylon tape which is far weaker than our current Spectra ripcord. A Spectra ripcord would have to lose 66% of its original strength before it would not be legal, and over 90% of its original strength before it could cause a problem. The example in the photo has probably lost less than 5%. Give me your shipping information, and I will send you a new ripcord section free of charge. Just loop it onto you existing handle, which, by the way, is also not stainless steel. I will pull test your ripcord section to destruction, and send you the results of the test. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #5 November 19, 2013 Out of curiosity. What is the condition of the... brain locking I can't think of the term, but the swedged end of your housing. Is there any thing rough there? I would think that the end of the housing not the ripcord would be the more likely culprit here. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gene03 0 #6 November 19, 2013 The inside brass collar or the swaged end itself? Or both.“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him. Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #7 November 19, 2013 The housing ending is called a ferrule. I always use this style of housing, from this manufacturer, because i haven't seen a "sharp" ferrule yet on one of their housings. However, anything is possible. Because there are so many individual fibers, and the ripcord is "doubled" at this location, damage should be very easy to identify before is becomes serious. In other words, the ripcord would look like a "Q tip" before its strength would be seriously compromised. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,216 #8 November 19, 2013 Easy to fix. A little heat from a butane lighter will clean up that fuzziness nicely. (kidding) Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #9 November 19, 2013 gowlerkEasy to fix. A little heat from a butane lighter will clean up that fuzziness nicely. Heat has many affects on nylon.... not all are good. I'd ask the manufacturer about that one.Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #10 November 19, 2013 skyjumpenfool***Easy to fix. A little heat from a butane lighter will clean up that fuzziness nicely. Heat has many affects on nylon.... not all are good. I'd ask the manufacturer about that one. NEVER apply heat from a lighter to Spectra. It has a low melting point, and you might easily create major damage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #11 November 19, 2013 billboothIn other words, the ripcord would look like a "Q tip" before its strength would be seriously compromised. Just some thoughts: Maybe if you are the one introducing new equipment, you need to do more to educate people dealing with the equipment. That's the cost of introducing something new, as I'm sure you know from marketing the Skyhook. Riggers have a reasonable handle on when to replace metal ripcords, but don't have much to go on for synthetic fibre ripcords (unless they read this thread). Fuzzy = bad? But to what degree? If a 7 by 7 strand metal ripcord cable has a couple broken strands at the pin, I bet almost any rigger will replace it. Maybe it isn't actually much weaker than originally, but that wear is considered in the industry to indicate a ripcord worn beyond acceptable values. So a rigger seeing a fuzzy Spectra ripcord may understandably not be too trusting of it. (We accept some fuzziness and broken fibres on harnesses, a fair bit on main canopy brake lines, and just a tiny bit of fuzz on reserve Cypres loops. Each situation is a little different.) Unless I missed it, perhaps UPT manuals need to show what is acceptable fuzziness or not for Spectra ripcords. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 36 #12 November 19, 2013 RiggerLeeOut of curiosity. What is the condition of the... brain locking I can't think of the term, but the swedged end of your housing. Is there any thing rough there? I would think that the end of the housing not the ripcord would be the more likely culprit here. Lee It's smooth, the cause of the wear should be something else."My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 36 #13 November 19, 2013 billboothPlease remember that I used Spectra ripcords for over 10 years on Sigma mains, where they were pulled on EVERY jump, before I started using them on reserves. There have been No failures that I know of. People often get over 1,000 uses out of them between replacement. Secondly, in real life, the vast majority of reserve ripcord pins are pulled by RSL's, which are not stainless steel, and are often a piece of nylon tape which is far weaker than our current Spectra ripcord. A Spectra ripcord would have to lose 66% of its original strength before it would not be legal, and over 90% of its original strength before it could cause a problem. The example in the photo has probably lost less than 5%. Give me your shipping information, and I will send you a new ripcord section free of charge. Just loop it onto you existing handle, which, by the way, is also not stainless steel. I will pull test your ripcord section to destruction, and send you the results of the test. Thanks for joining the discussion Bill, but nothing you said gave the answer to my question. I'll think out loud for a moment. Let say, I do a repack with the ripcord from the picture. My knowledge is good enough to know that this ripcord is far from breaking. But I also know that 6 months ago this wear wasn't there. And now I have to think, well if this is the wear I get in 6 months off season, how bad it will look after another 6 months in the busy season? Do I really want to find out? What about the broken elastic? I know it has nothing to do with the strength, but it keeps the ripcord inside the housing. Without it, there's a nasty loop forming between the handle and the housing. Now I have to think, how bad that could be?! Well, really bad. Let say a TM just had an unexpected reserve ride because the zipper slider on his sleeve got snagged there. It all goes well and nobody send a report to you. What's gonna happen if things don't go well? I bet you guys will say:" But that ripcord should've been replaced! Bad maintenance"...case closed! Give me a number I ( and the riggers around the world) can work with. What is the acceptable wear? 5%, 10%, 50%, 66%. Is it OK to use a ripcord with a broken elastic even if there's no wear on the Spectra line? Is replacing of the broken elastic authorized? Unless there's a written document saying what is the acceptable wear, any wear should be unacceptable IMO. In one of the SB's from Sunpath, there's a really good explanation with pictures what's New, Worn out but still OK and Bad MLW. We don't have to guess, We just have to look at the pictures and compare.....Beside, I'm not really good in guessing. I've been buying lottery tickets for 10 years without winning anything. I don't want to guess that something is good/strong enough. I want to be sure! That affects my sleep in a positive way! We don't accept stainless reserve ripcord cables with any damage, although they are probably still way stronger than what the TSO requires. Why should we accept the damaged Spectra ones? Make sense, doesn't it? I hope you don't take it personal. It's just a discussion! P.S. I don't have that ripcord. Was given back to the owner. That's why I took the pictures."My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnSherman 1 #14 November 20, 2013 QuoteOthers have done the same thing in the past. There is actually quite a lot of history and experience with cloth ripcords. In the mid-to-late seventies, I built an elastic retractible suspension line ripcord and mounted it on the belly band of an SST. I sent it to Para-Flite/SSE with which I was in cahoots at the time. Johnny Higgins, of North American Aerodynamics, saw it on a visit to Pennsauken and adapted it for his Condor. It was a standard item on the rig until it was eventually replaced with hand deployed pilotchutes. Both Para Flite/SSE and I rejected it back then because of the wear potential. If broken strands of wire are found on a stainless steel ripcord cable, we replace the ripcord assembly. Within a TSO’d system any damage is cause for rejection. You simply can’t, as a rigger, take a chance. Because of my experience with textile ripcords I now make stainless steel ones. Full Disclosure! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #15 November 20, 2013 Help me out. What was the name of the two pin piggy back that used a 900 lb Dacron reserve rip cord? It was two pins horizontal. Looked like a wonderhog. Was it an Omni or Omega or some thing like that? I want to say that it was an O name. We used to have one come through the shop back in Carrollton. That would have put them doing soft reserve ripcords back in the... late seventies early eighties? I want to say the rig was royal blue and yellow with capewells. I make jokes about it but I honestly don't see any thing wrong with the fundamental idea. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #16 November 20, 2013 RiggerLeeHelp me out. What was the name of the two pin piggy back that used a 900 lb Dacron reserve rip cord? It was two pins horizontal. Looked like a wonderhog. Top Secret? Solution? Spanish Fly? Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,373 #17 November 20, 2013 Hi Lee, The only one that I know of ( for the reserve ) was the Handbury rig. It was built by FreeFlight in Elsinore. JerryBaumchen PS) Hi John, I remember when Higgins had that ripcord. As I recall, it also had some type of elastic retractor. Yes/No??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #18 November 20, 2013 What if we apply a similar wear standard to the wear standards that already affect Cypres loops and reserve suspension lines? More than one broken carrier means replacing the ripcord. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #19 November 20, 2013 Jerry, you are right. Handbury used a rip cord made with Kevlar. The pin would act like a ripcord stop and not allow the ripcord to clear the channel. On this matter I think the first thing that needs to be done is determine was is causing the wear. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pnuwin 0 #20 November 20, 2013 Hi Sparky, With the UPT spectra ripcord I've had the pin jam the channel on every single test pull I've done for my reserve repacks. I've done this on several Vectors now and it seems to be consistent. The pin gets dragged by the ripcord to the metal housing then jams. At first I didn't think much of it, but a rigger told me ripcord stops have killed people. I have a second Vector with the marine eye metal ripcord and the cable clears every time. I'm curious. Have any other Vector owners had trouble clearing their ripcords after a test pull? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #21 November 20, 2013 pnuwinWith the UPT spectra ripcord I've had the pin jam the channel on every single test pull I've done for my reserve repacks. I've done this on several Vectors now and it seems to be consistent. The pin gets dragged by the ripcord to the metal housing then jams. At first I didn't think much of it, but a rigger told me ripcord stops have killed people How did it kill people? "The RSL system on Vectors is different from that on other container systems. It is designed NOT to damage your reserve ripcord cable. The velcro attaching the RSL lanyard to the top reserve flap is designed to allow the RSL pin to rotate when you pull the reserve handle so that the pin will not jam against the ripcord housing. On Vector 3's this tab is a double velcro sandwich that almost always allows this rotation to take place. As noted, even if the RSL pin doesn't rotate out of the reserve ripcord end piece, there is no negative effect on the reserve container opening." http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1010403;search_string=velcro%20rsl%20pin;#1010403 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pnuwin 0 #22 November 20, 2013 I don't know all the history but a quick search of "Ripcord stops" came up with this fatality and a bunch of other interesting threads. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3423403;search_string=ripcord%20stops;#3423403 If the ripcord is dropped in an unstable deployment, it can tangle with the deploying reserve while remaining stuck in the housing. I too was convinced the velcro sandwich on the RSL lanyard was enough to rotate the pin, but in every test pull I've done so far, the pin jammed the ripcord hard housing. Trust me, I was surprised when it first happened and may have video somewhere. I always do a test pull with the rig on my back and simulated emergency speeds. It won't jam if you pull slow and gently. You are right, it doesn't affect the reserve container opening. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #23 November 20, 2013 I don't think that this kind of 'ripcord stop' would cause an issue. The only issue I could think of off hand would be if a ripcord stopped before the pin was extracted from the loop, which wouldn't be hard to accidentally do. What happens to the reserve ripcord once you pull it, the pin locks it and you let go of the handle? Does it suck back up to the housing?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #24 November 20, 2013 pnuwinHi Sparky, With the UPT spectra ripcord I've had the pin jam the channel on every single test pull I've done for my reserve repacks. I've done this on several Vectors now and it seems to be consistent. The pin gets dragged by the ripcord to the metal housing then jams. At first I didn't think much of it, but a rigger told me ripcord stops have killed people. I have a second Vector with the marine eye metal ripcord and the cable clears every time. I'm curious. Have any other Vector owners had trouble clearing their ripcords after a test pull? Ripcord stops "killed" people when they were on the MAIN ripcord...and then, if I remember correctly, only when front mounted reserves were used. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 2 #25 November 20, 2013 mjosparkyOn this matter I think the first thing that needs to be done is determine was is causing the wear. Maybe caused by packer dragging the rig while stowing the main lines. Friction on the reserve handle could expose a bit of the blue spectra? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
