mountainman 0 #1 May 1, 2002 Last year, before Laura and I ordered our new canopies, I called Icarus and talked to them. They said that they did not have plans on replacing the Icarus Safire canopy anytime in the near future.Also, I talked to the guy I bought my gear from, Steve Alexander from ParaQuip and he told me the exact same thing.After that, I thought "ok, I guess we should get some of these then".Well, as you may have seen from the main page.....HERE4 years ago we released the Icarus Safire. A revolutionary canopy, being the first all purpose 9 cell canopy to include a lightly & truly elliptical planform shape offering superior openings and flight characteristics compared to competing mid-performance range 9 cell designs at the time.We new that the superior characteristics of this design, such as a lightly & truly elliptical planform shape combined with constant cell proportioning would not be ignored by other canopy manufacturers. This style of design would become the benchmark for mid-range performance canopies and other manufacturers would build similar designs as we have recently seen.The Safire 2, like the original Safire is a truly elliptical canopy with a light shaping incorporating a constant cell aspect ratio which consistently controls the airfoil shape across the canopy, maintaining increased rigidity and reducing drag.The Safire 2 is an enhanced version of the original Safire incorporating new trim and plan form shaping techniques. Its openings are arguably the sweetest of any canopy in its class. So much so that you'd swear it was a 7 cell opening above your head. We have also integrated an even greater glide ratio, more nimble and very predicable flight characteristics, responsive flight controls both on toggles and risers, a shorter recovery arc to maintain a higher level of safety for mid-range jumpers and a powerful flare. The Safire 2 is designed to fly best at wing loadings of .75 to 1.6. At the lower end, the Safire flies forgivingly and is an ideal transitional canopy. At the higher loadings, it is a fast-moving smooth-handling ride that outperforms other canopies in its class.That is some fucked up bullshit if I have ever seen any! I can guarentee that I'll never say ANYTHING good about my canopy or recommend them to ANYONE. Anyone else have this problem with Icarus?JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #2 May 1, 2002 What exactly did you mean when you said 'anytime soon'? Did you ask him what he meant when he said 'anytime soon'? Skydivers, it seems to me, are an impatient bunch, when we want something 'soon' we want it next week, not next year. I'm guessing you didn't ask the right questions. I've been in contact, on and off, with Icarus and they've never denied the rework of the Safire. They've never promised a date on it either. If you talk to them nicely they might even give you reasonable trade on the canopies you have provided you buy the new Safire. Then again, maybe they won't.By the way, just by jumping the canopy you're saying something good about it. You're saying that you trust it to save your life, you're saying that it's good enough to put you and your wife gently back on this fine planet of ours. If you really feel that way you should sell yours, both of them.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #3 May 1, 2002 QuoteThat is some fucked up bullshit if I have ever seen any! I can guarentee that I'll never say ANYTHING good about my canopy or recommend them to ANYONE. So... no manufacturer should ever change or improve a product? Didja think maybe they made the decision _after_ you bought yours? Would you have waited a year to buy if you'd known? Is it a possibility that neither Icarus nor your dealer own a crystal ball and couldn't predict the future when you talked to them?Welcome to the wonderful world of skydiving equipment. Things constantly change - the Bonehead Mindwarp of today is a totally different helmet than the one they originally produced, the Triathlon has been through several "versions", a Voodoo container purchased today will be different than one purchased only a year ago, the standard Javelin container of today is very different than the one they produced only three years ago... Get over it. If you like the way your canopy opens, flies and lands then it shouldn't be a problem. If you don't like your canopy, then you should have done more demoing and research before you bought it.pull & flare,lisa[subliminal msg]My website Go Now[/subliminal msg] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #4 May 1, 2002 This sort of thing happens all the time in the computer industry as I'm sure your probably aware.Yeah, it kinda sucks when companies do that (don't tell you about a pending upgrade to their product line), but you have to understand to do otherwise might shut them down until the new product is released.For instance, if 6 months ago they had made a statement that they were going to upgrade their product line in 6 months, it's entirely likely that few, if anyone, would have purchased anything from the current line. Well, 6 months is a LONG time to go with very few sales, so they might have had to go out of business.No. They shouldn't have lied, if in fact that's what they did. A better statement from them would have been something akin to, "We're constantly doing product R&D. Right now we're selling the best canopies we can make. Want to buy one?"So, yeah, I understand where you're coming from, but it's really all just a part of the way almost everyone has to do business.quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #5 May 1, 2002 get used to it, skdiving equipment is almost as bad as computers.When I bought my new rig a while back (Sabre/Mirage/Raven) - within a year, the Sabre2 was introduced, mirage started putting on chest rings (Unisys) and the Raven Max was a little while after all that.Oh well... it happens...You don't scare me! I got chunks of guys like you in my stool!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #6 May 1, 2002 I can understand why you would be ticked dude, especially after laying out that much cash.If the canopy manufactuers are anything like the telecom mans, then often times they won't announce expected release dates until the product finishes testing and is ready for release because so many things can cause sigificant delivery date slippages - I have a feeling after the Crossfire quality control incident last year, they probably wanted to make extra sure the product(s) were perfect before getting anyones hopes up.Consider as well, as long as the older Safire had to compete with the newer Sabre2 - Icarus was losing sales. If you don't announce a release date until you are 100% certain, then you can never be considered 'late' or worse yet, deemed 'vapourware'. The more I deal with the canopy manufacturers in trying to acquire different demo canopies to try out, the more I realize they are just like every other industry, with similar problems and concerns. Thus far, I have had one manufacturer bend over backwards to help me find the best canopy for me, I've had another 'misplace' the demo canopy and thus far are almost 3 weeks late in shipping it, and yet another manufacturer has yet to even reply to a single message (of the multiple) I have left them asking about trying out thier canopies. Figured I'd try playing the devils advocate on this one. Oh well. I too have a Safire, though picked it up used (I knew I was going to downsize in about a year). Though if you are really ticked, wouldn't hurt to let them know in an email - maybe they could give you an explination? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #7 May 1, 2002 Yeah, this happens in all kinds of things, not just skydiving. Like when i bought my vibrator, 6 months later they redesigned it to be more powerful and quieter. Damn, i was pissed...."A day without sunshine is....well....it's dark" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #8 May 1, 2002 LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You are so cool Blue Skies ..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #9 May 1, 2002 QuoteLike when i bought my vibrator, 6 months later they redesigned it to be more powerful and quieter. instead you upgraded to a real life vibrator...Cheers....vasbytmarc"it's hard to be anal with no anus!!!"-Dogma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coconutmonkey 0 #10 May 1, 2002 V6 or V8 model? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harro 0 #11 May 1, 2002 Rotary!!!!Freemind, freesky, freebeer, freefly, freesex Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #12 May 1, 2002 BooHoo. I bought a round canopy made of F111 fabric in 1972 and then the damn manufacturers went and these new fangled square things, so I bought one of those, then they made them out of that new fangled ZP fabric, so I bought one of those, then came elliptical canopies, so I bought one of those...... it goes on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #13 May 1, 2002 QuoteYou are so cool Why can't more people think like you?!"A day without sunshine is....well....it's dark" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #14 May 1, 2002 > 6 months later they redesigned it to be more powerful and quieter.Quieter is better? Never really thought about it before . . .-bill von Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #15 May 1, 2002 QuoteThis sort of thing happens all the time in the computer industryHeh. And at an exponentially faster rate.That GeForce 4 card I bought which was the bomb 4 months ago is now obsolete."Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #16 May 1, 2002 brandon take a look at this post that you KNEW about....Quotehttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=forumgear&Number=40792&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1#Post40792how do you explain this then...as you flame away.....Cheers....vasbytmarc"it's hard to be anal with no anus!!!"-Dogma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dove 0 #17 May 1, 2002 Good research Marc! Someone has some explaining to do... ahem!Oh - and Bill.... quieter is only better if you're playing in secret. Else - louder is better - more rumbling. Yummy! Just like those scintillating skyvans! Ahhhhhhhhh... lalalalalala!dove Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #18 May 1, 2002 Heres another one.... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forums/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=forumgear&Number=39069&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1#Post39069Brandon... I think you owe Icarus an apology here...If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #19 May 1, 2002 I didnt do the research...a certain birdy told me....I just posted it after they alerted me to his obvious short memory..apologize brandon..Cheers....vasbytmarc"it's hard to be anal with no anus!!!"-Dogma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #20 May 1, 2002 Quoteinstead you upgraded to a real life vibrator...I got a fresh supply of batteries, why do i need the real thing?"A day without sunshine is....well....it's dark" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #21 May 1, 2002 OUCH..that one hurtCheers....vasbytmarc"it's hard to be anal with no anus!!!"-Dogma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ECVZZ 0 #22 May 1, 2002 Well, for one thing, trying to converse across the dinner table with a vibrator could be a bit disturbing! G. Jones"Why don't they have a light bulb that only shines on things that are worth looking at?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #23 May 1, 2002 I asked them if they were coming out with one the next year (this year) because I heard a lot of people talking about it. However, they denied it up and down and said that there wasn't.That is what got me pissed. JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #24 May 1, 2002 Well dude, get over it.What's the problem anyway? Does your canopy open, fly, and land well? What makes you think that the Safire2 will be 'better' than what you've got now? For all you know it might open, fly, and land like shit compared to your standards.As it was mentioned earlier, they might not have known when the Safire 2 was going to be released - it seems to me that they had their hands full with the Crossfire problems at around the time you were asking.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #25 May 1, 2002 QuoteWhat's the problem anyway? Does your canopy open, fly, and land well? What makes you think that the Safire2 will be 'better' than what you've got now? For all you know it might open, fly, and land like shit compared to your standards.As it was mentioned earlier, they might not have known when the Safire 2 was going to be released - it seems to me that they had their hands full with the Crossfire problems at around the time you were asking.You are right, however I guess I'm just pissed that I spent that money and could have gotten something that might be an improvement.However, since it flies well and gets me to the ground at less than terminal is a good thing.And yea....the XFire thing. Ouch! They were probably VERY busy with that at the time.Do you guys think that the Crossfire2 will sell very well with the problems they've had with the original?JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
