I'm a little nervous vs I'm not scared.

[Tonto 1]

This past Saturday I arrived at the DZ late, and due to a few thunderstorms, jumping was done for the day.

I did an AFF L1 briefing for a new student, had dinner and went to the bar.

It was really quiet, and as I nursed my 1st beer, I started chatting to 2 guys on the static line program - both of whom were to do their 1st freefall the following day.

These 2 men were very different.

One had prior military experience, was quiet, and a little worried about how he would perform the following day. He'd listened carefully to the 1st freefall briefing, and had determined the best course of action would be to approach the dive exactly the way he had done his last practice pull. He reminded me a lot of the way I felt late in February 1985 when I was about to do my 1st freefall.

The other was louder. And unconcerned about the following day. He drank more, and faster. He made fun of his friend for stopping drinking at 21h30 and ordering 4 bottles of water. He felt that his 1st freefall was "nothing" and that there was no change from SL at all.
I looked around to see if there were any women he may be trying to impress, but no, that was not the case. A few people with 100 jumps, a packer, the woman who manages the bar and is like a communal mom - and me. He left at 22h00. Shortly before 22h30 we were winding things down when he returned, and wanted more beer. He wasn't drunk but at that point in the evening I couldn't see the benefit of an extra drink, (I'd had 2) and neither could anyone else. I explained murphy's laws of combat, and told him not to be the low guy in the morning. (Murphy's always looking for the low guy..what's the worst that could happen?) Bar's closed. See you in the morning. Unhappily, he went to bed.

The following day both men did their 1st freefall.

Quiet guy did OK. Good 3 second delay, clean deployment, good pattern and landing.

Noisy guy not so much. Went unstable, pulled, had an induced spinning malfunction, fired his reserve, then cut away, but not before the pilot chute had wrapped around the lines of the main and the reserve bag had wrapped around the reserve lines. Interestingly, at times it looked like a 2 out, but as he decended, the freeflying main began to drag the reserve bag further and further up the lines, choking it more and more.

I started running when he was at about 1000ft, and the ambulance was called around the same time. It was about a 400m run to his impact point, and I got there maybe 25 secs after he hit, having made no attempt whatsoever to do a PLF. As far as injuries go, his failure to PLF saved his legs from injury. His torso, however, never faired as well. He has a crushed T12 but no nerve damage, a broken Pelvis, a broken sternum and badly bruised lungs and heart. He'll probably make it. Doubtless his story will differ from mine.

I chose to post this in Safety and Training rather than incidents because I don't think this is something that happened to a skydiver. I think this is what happens when someone bullshits themselves that they're better than they are, and then make mistake, after mistake, after mistake in an environment which is very unforgiving of even small mistakes. I think this man is an events cascade. He'll probably think he was unlucky.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[phoenixlpr 0]

It's a real horror. What do you think? Is he going to jump again?

[popsjumper 2]

...the Lutz syndrome?

It's weird how sometimes personality is an indicator of performance and sometimes it's quite the opposite.
This was a case of "I could see it coming." And many times it's, "Wow! Where in the hell did that come from?"

I wish we could have some reliable indicators of performance but humans, being what we are, are mostly unpredictable.

All those "student from hell" stories....geez, all you in-air instructors I give you my hat.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Tonto 1]

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Is he going to jump again?

Not at a DZ I work at.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Peej 0]

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Is he going to jump again?

Not at a DZ I work at.

T.U.G chom.

I spoke to Ma on Sunday night and she told me the story and described the dude, it's funny, i think i was chatting to him at a table in the bar on Sat night during the Nationals weekend and got much the same vibe from him.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[Orange1 0]

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Is he going to jump again?

Not at a DZ I work at.

t

hm,i've seen a student permanently grounded throughout the country after doing something stupid enough that her intact survival was a miracle.

Did you speak to him after the incident - in particular to find out why he fired his reserve before cutting away? As I recall when i did my first freefall, a couple of years ago, at that stage you have one and only one EP in your head, and that involves cutting away before deploying reserve.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Tonto 1]

No, I didn't talk to him other than the usual questions like "Who are you?" and "Where are you?" and "Did you lose conciousness?" and "Do you have any alergies?" and "What's your bloodgroup?" and "Don't move. Just relax as much as you can. The ambulanc is on it's way." He was really struggling to breathe and was very winded, so the answers were not chatty ones, but the responses were good.

It's pretty pointless asking them what went wrong right after the incident. It doesn't really matter. What matters is keeping them alive.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Peej 0]

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As I recall when i did my first freefall, a couple of years ago, at that stage you have one and only one EP in your head, and that involves cutting away before deploying reserve.

And the hangover that was also in his head? That could have played a huge role in what happened here. I've skydived with a hangover a few times before (as i'm sure many people here have) and i'll admit to you right now that while i have done hundreds of packjobs there have been times that i've had to re-check myself while packing because my own cloudy head has said: "Have i done that right?"

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[Tonto 1]

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And the hangover that was also in his head?

I don't think he had enough to have a hangover. No way was he shattered when he went to bed at 22h30 - and his dive was over 12 hrs later.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Peej 0]

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And the hangover that was also in his head?

I don't think he had enough to have a hangover. No way was he shattered when he went to bed at 22h30 - and his dive was over 12 hrs later.

Oh ok cool, Di told me he was pretty hammered on Sat eve but you were there and i trust your judgement

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[Andy9o8 2]

I'm curious: at your DZ, do you teach students the "1 hand on each handle" method for cutaways, or the "both hands on cutaway handle, then both hands on reserve handle" method?

[riggerrob 643]

Only two types of people are not scared by skydiving: fools and liars.

[riggerrob 643]

The "8 hours between bottle and throttle" rule only works for moderate drinkers.
It is possible to pound back a bottle of rum and still be drunk 8.1 hours later.

[livendive 8]

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Only two types of people are not scared by skydiving: fools and liars.

I'd much rather work with a student who has too much fear than one who doesn't have any.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[skr 1]

I used to find it very nerve wracking to put
people out on their first freefall after static line.

"Why didn't you pull!!??"

"I liked it, I wanted to keep going."


And they wonder why we have gray hair :-) :-)

Skr

[AFFI 0]

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I'd much rather work with a student who has too much fear than one who doesn't have any.

Blues,
Dave

Damn straight!

It is possible that his fear was immense but he was covering it up with tough talk rater than dealing with it (letting it show?).

Tough guy syndrome, then froze when life got interesting?

[jumpwally 0]

"failure to plf saved his legs" please explain ? Thanx

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[billvon 2,991]

>failure to plf saved his legs" please explain ?

If you do not land with your legs, they are often not injured. The classic case is a student pulling their legs up just before they land (because some people do that when they flare, or out of fear) such that they land on their butt. Their legs are then not injured, but their pelvis and back may break.

In general, you are better off with a broken leg than a broken pelvis or back - and so a PLF is a good idea, especially if you are going to land hard.

[udder 0]

I've read of student containers with both handles rigged for SOS(Or SOS on reserve handle and RSL) Would this have saved him? Though maybe he's lucky he'll live and didnt hang around long enough to "Not be scared" on a <100 at 100 jumps...

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[Tonto 1]

I've seen dual deployments on SOS systems.

I've seen people go in after both hands on cutaway that
a)never found the reserve, or
b)had the snap shackle fail on the RSL

No procedure is flawless, but all work if done the way they were taught.

That's the crux of my origional post.

Do what you were taught. If you are unable to perform under pressure and so cannot do what you were taught, don't bullshit yourself that you can. In this sport, something will go wrong. It may be on jump 9, or jump 4529, but it will happen at some point, and when it does, you need to be ready.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Waldschrat 0]

How many jumps did both students have?

[Tonto 1]

This was their 9th dive.

3 no task SL - Arch and count.
5 PRCP.
1 1st freefall.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[kevinwhelan 0]

Just wondering how this guys attitude was through his static line course, and if it raised any concerns with his instructors before this incident.

"be honest with yourself. Why do I want to go smaller? It is not going to make my penis longer." ~Brian Germain, on downsizing

[Tonto 1]

I'm no longer a SL instructor or Jumpmaster, but his attitude certainly concerned me.

The previous weekend he'd come very close to hitting the clubhouse and was taken to task by the SO, and ended up giving her a lot of lip, and then leaving in a huff.

Of course, there are many skydivers with a bad attitude who never hurt themselves. And then there are those who's attitudes eventually catch up with them, as mine did around jump number 150.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Waldschrat 0]

Bad habits.....a thing where we can work at.
Maybe is now the moment where are he would clearly understand his teachers?

I am also wondering, because you have said in a thread long time back, that you like to teach the difficult students.

....and now you capitulate prior a student after his 9. jump?

.....and when he have the balls to came back you will not allow him to jump on your dz.....and in the end (hypothetical)to given the responsibility to some one else on a other nameless dz?