riggerrob 643 #76 September 22, 2014 If a round reserve was grounded by the acid mesh fiasco, then it must be pull-tested at every repack. It also has to be tested with bromocreasal at every repack. After tensile-testing for 25 years, most of those round reserves are worn out. The tensile-testing process is non-destructive. When done properly, it is difficult to see the minor weave separation with the naked eye. But if you pull-test 20 times in the same place, you will eventually tear good fabric. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,354 #77 September 23, 2014 Hi Rob, QuoteIf a round reserve was grounded by the acid mesh fiasco, then it must be pull-tested at every repack. Simply not true. It all depends upon what the paperwork says. It has been many, many years since I submitted my request to the designated FAA office for approval. My procedure does not require any further testing once the canopy has passed the req'd testing. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,354 #78 September 23, 2014 Hi keith, Quotewould it then need to be tested at each and every repack thereafter . or less often once a year Your question is too general in nature. It all depends upon the specific reserve canopy. One would need to know specifically what reserve you are interested in; then we could proceed from that knowledge. Back during the 'acid mesh problem' I had a rather long conversation with the then V-P of National Parachute regarding ongoing testing; she wanted my thoughts on the subject. My response was that if acid was not present during the testing then how could it get there in the next 1-year time-frame. I. e., if you do not have paint on your house, and you do not paint your house, how can it have paint on it 12 months later. Just my thoughts, JerryBaumchen JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #79 September 23, 2014 We never did hear the full story from the fabric mills or mesh mills or parachute manufacturers, but as I understood it, all suspected round canopies were supposed to be tested for acidity (bromocreasol green or litmus paper). If they (chemically) tested neutral, then they could be returned to service. OTOH if they proved acidic, the second sage was pull-testing. If they passed pull-testing, then you washed them and re-tested them. A few lofts had FAA approval paperwork to re-certify canopies "acid mesh free." Butler insisted that I pull-test every used canopy that came through his loft. He also insisted that I put ages drops on canopy models that were mentioned in the acid nest recalls. So I suspect that Butler's "alternative method of compliance" was slightly different than Baumchen's. By now, I am just glad that Free Flight Enterprises, GQ Security, National and Para-Phernalia have given us additional excuses for not repacking PEPs older than some of our glider pilot customers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
potatoman 0 #80 September 23, 2014 I gots a 25yr old reserve. That thing has no jumps on it, is still crispy, and the lines are in SUPER shape. I would jump that thing any time of day. Actually thinking I must go base the darn thing.You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to tell you how Fu***** stupid it is. Davelepka - "This isn't an x-box, or a Chevy truck forum" Whatever you do, don't listen to ChrisD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #81 September 23, 2014 potatomanI gots a 25yr old reserve. That thing has no jumps on it, is still crispy, and the lines are in SUPER shape. I would jump that thing any time of day. Actually thinking I must go base the darn thing. ........................................... Who made that reserve? When did they make it? Does it have meshed turn windows? Was the mesh ever tested for acid? Was it mentioned in the acid mesh recalls? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,354 #82 September 23, 2014 Hi Rob, QuoteWe never did hear the full story from the fabric mills or mesh mills or parachute manufacturers This true. What we were able to 'determine' to some extent was that the fabric mills, in order to broaden their market, had added a fire retardent to the mesh. This was req'd if they wanted to sell to tent mfrs as fire retardent mat'ls have to be used where personnel are sleeping. The fabric mills never told anyone about the change. And with the change, the mesh still met the Mil Spec req'ments. The problem was that, over time, the fire retardent coating reacted with the nylon fabric in the canopy, weakening the nylon fabric. A couple of local jumpers both had SAC reserves that were grounded due to the resultant AD. They then bought brand new National Phantom rounds, only to have those grounded due to the later SB. They both quit jumping after that. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Quagmirian 40 #83 September 23, 2014 I think it was a conspiracy by ParaFlite. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
keithbar 1 #84 September 23, 2014 JerryBaumchenHi keith, Quotewould it then need to be tested at each and every repack thereafter . or less often once a year Your question is too general in nature. It all depends upon the specific reserve canopy. One would need to know specifically what reserve you are interested in; then we could proceed from that knowledge. JerryBaumchen well I'm talking about a late 80's era square reserve. one of the super raven'si have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nickfrey 0 #85 September 23, 2014 keithbar man I'm glad to hear that. I trust my life to a 1988 raven 2 on almost every jump. but hey it's never been deployed. lived it's whole life packed inside a cont. i an't worried one iota 1986 Raven 1 here, never deployed... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #86 September 23, 2014 It was never just the mesh. I had a bias constructed round that had two different panels of material next to a single panel of mesh. One fabric panel had completely degraded to wet toilet paper strength. The adjacent panel, both next to the same piece of mesh for their entire life, seen the same environment, temperature, moisture, etc, was full strength. Of course there was no way to know if those two ripstop panels, both the same color, were from the same bolt, or even lot or manufacturer of cloth. I've also had a ram air reserve, no mesh to be seen, fail at the wet toilet paper level. In a limited area on one skin. Though PIA Dupont (now Invista) was given samples at the time through PIA but never came back with any results. Either didn't investigate, didn't find or understand issue, or choose not to disclose.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,354 #87 September 23, 2014 Hi Terry, Quote Of course there was no way to know if those two ripstop panels, both the same color, were from the same bolt, or even lot or manufacturer of cloth. This is/was one of the problems back then. Mfrs merely bought the mat'ls to the Mil Spec; and expected/hoped that they would be the same. And there is nothing wrong with the mfrs doing this. QuoteThough PIA Dupont (now Invista) was given samples at the time through PIA but never came back with any results. Either didn't investigate, didn't find or understand issue, or choose not to disclose. I'll take door #3, Bob. JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #88 September 24, 2014 Yes, Councilman I had the same experience. I pull-tested a hole in a white, round reserve. It was made from two different batches of white fabric. Some of the panels looked like they were made of MIL SPEC LoPo-ish fabric and they were fine, but the other panels looked like they were made of some sort of coated fabric ... not quiet water-proof enough for tents, but definitely coated more than F-111. The coated fabric failed at less than 30 pounds. I only ever pull-tested a hole in one square reserve. It was made by Para-Flite .. Safety-Flier (?). Any ways, it was made of white, pre-F-111 fabric. Since the canopy was so small and so old (made in the late 1970s), I did not bother trying to revive it. Rather I told my boss to sell him a Raven. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #89 September 24, 2014 I think mine was a pioneer. All the fabric looked right and normal. One panel was full strength. One failed before my scale really registered. Two or three pounds. Ram air was laser. Tail around label in contact with coated free bag also failed at 2 to 3 lbs. These weren't just sub strength. They were total failure. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #90 September 24, 2014 Oddly enough, the only square reserve I've ever seen rip was a safety flyer. It had a musty moldy smell but no visible discoloration. Wag picked a cell up and popped it and ripped it from nose to tail. And I mean nose to tail. In true Wag fashion, when it split he just kept pulling with his big long monkey arms. I didn't champ it but I'd say it tore at around 12 to 15 lb. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #91 September 24, 2014 Its time to make it a car cover,,,, smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #92 September 24, 2014 .......... JerryBaumchen well I'm talking about a late 80's era square reserve. one of the super raven's ............................................................... Since Ravens were never mentioned in the acid-mesh recalls, there is no requirement to test them for acidity. Zero square reserves were mentioned during the acid-mesh scandal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,354 #93 September 24, 2014 Hi keith, Quote Zero square reserves were mentioned during the acid-mesh scandal. ^^^^^ This. I hope that this answers your question. JerryBaumchen PS) Rob beat me to it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #94 September 25, 2014 I have a brand new 22' sac that failed the acid mesh test. I'll sell it for a good price www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #95 September 25, 2014 I'll give you five bucks.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #96 September 26, 2014 I have a 28' Phantom that is on the list. It's in a National Warp III container and it's great for rigger training. Acid mesh testing, round flaking, 2 pin container closing. I wouldn't want to jump it anymore though! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #97 September 26, 2014 maybe I could hook it up to a chest mount with a cutaway and have some fun with it some daywww.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #98 September 26, 2014 jimjumperI have a 28' Phantom that is on the list. It's in a National Warp III container and it's great for rigger training. Acid mesh testing, round flaking, 2 pin container closing. I wouldn't want to jump it anymore though! ................................................................. Warp IIIs are also great training aids for teaching them how to sew on replacement Velcro. I am trying to remember .... does a Warp III have 2 miles of Velcro or 3? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #99 September 26, 2014 Mine was in a corsair which is now a hanging harness for my kids to go down my zip line. I guess I could have sewed it shut and put a zipper in the top to make a backpack or something....www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimjumper 25 #100 September 26, 2014 It depends on whether it has narrow or wide velcro for the main closing flap! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
