I'm wondering.....

[grosfion 0]

After reading this forum for a couple of month I find it very informative, amusing and sometimes a little bit sad, but there is one thing which makes me a little bit wondering:
I read articles from "experienced Skydivers" with over a hundred jumps telling what daring things they are doing up there.
Has somethings changed in the AFF regulations that you are jumping now from the stratosphere or it is required a ten hour wind tunnel training before your first jump? When I had around a hundred jumps I was far away from being "experienced" and even now I'm stuggle to use this expression. Ok maybe I'm a little bit slow but I saw a lot of other jumpers and I did not got a different impression.
I don't want to offend anyone but I think if beginners are reading this articles they might get a wrong impression how long it takes to learn this sport properly. I don't think this is a daredevil-forum and I'm just a jumper who wants to have fun without unnecessary risk.
Does this makes sense or am I completely wrong?
Joe
p.s.> of course I'm not talking about this nature talents with only a few jumps but very very skilled in jumping and canopy control (there might be some in here)... So please save me your glorious storries what you've learned in just 50 jumps...

[AggieDave 6]

Hey man, I've got 105 jumps and when asked I will present my opinion. I've never claimed to be an expert skydiver, but I do have more experience then someone with say 20 jumps. Not much more, but some so with that said, I like to try to impart some of what I have learned. IMHO if you don't try to help out with the sport, if you just jump and are happy not trying to help those that are going through what you have gone through before, then you are wrong. From what I've seen in the past 2 years, this sport is built upon that family, like a Sea Daddy in the Navy, you take what you've learned and you make sure that someone else learns that too, and so forth.
I am, however, the definative guide to jumping with a pumpkin on your head...
"ahhhhoo...the little guy hasn't done anything yet and you know its going to be good..."

[lazerq3 0]

Quote

)... So please save me your glorious storries what you've learned in just 50 jumps...

I actauly enjoy hearing those 50 jump wonder stories!!!! I mean thats what this site is all about..people telling us their stories and opinions and advice.......Now I can tell you I'm a freakin expert with 73 jumps....and if you want to listen to me then go ahead ...if you dont then dont.......but we all have our right to post an opinion about what we do...some will agree and some will disagree but thats whats great about this place....Some things I hear here I will go out and try to apply ...other things I throw out the window and thats my chioce....but I dont bash anyone for having an opinion I disagree with,,,I may question it but thats the only way your going to learn...I know I've said some things here that I thought were right and then someone comes behind me and says hey dude...that aint right........well holy shit...I didnt realize that...thanks for coorecting me.....Now if I wouldnt have said it I wouldnt have learned the truth and thats what this site is about......and if we have a little free time its about boobies, beer, and picking on clay!!!! (by the way I dont consider myself an expert with only 73 jumps but we can all learn a little from everyone!!)
jason

[lummy 4]

Quote

by the way I dont consider myself an expert with only 73 jumps but we can all learn a little from everyone

Exactly..... And to add, We 50 jump wonders would like to give back to the sport too. And this may sound stupid but sometimes I feel that we have a little more enthusiasm for answering the newbie questions that get asked a million and one times. Why? I think partly because we have just been thru the same things and have learned from ourselves and others. These lessons are still fresh in our memory and we therefore understand the frustrations of trying to get into a sit for the first time or judging where you are going to land etc....and (IMO) offer our experiences with the same enthusiasm.
FWIW.... IF I chime in on a serious note, I will almost always state my experience level or will put a disclaimer in....
All of us have something to offer.... And to reuse advice I gave a friend a few months back. You will get opinions from all over, some great, usually good, some crap, . Your job is to take it all in filter thru it,and form your own opinion....
Welcome to DZ BTW :)
Grew up way to fast, now there's nothing to believe, and reruns all become a history....

[n2skdvn 0]

With 400+ jumps i feel i have a bit of knowlage in the sport,plus ive been in this sport for almost 6 years.
I still dont consider myself an expert.i will always be learning somthing. If you have a question ask there are people always
here to answer any question to the best of their knowlage.
just glad your here!!
have fun be safe!!!
kreg
if ya can't dodge it RAM IT !!!!!!
click me

[Haeloth 0]

Right now I am a 35 jump (not exactly) wonder. While it sounds like a lot of fun to be a daredevil skygod, I don't want to be a pompous ass in the future when I got 100 jumps and "knows" everything there is to know about the sport.
Is there anything I can do to cancel out the "skygod factor", or is is something that everybody has to go through? (like puberty)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

[Scratch 0]

Quote

Is there anything I can do to cancel out the "skygod factor", or is is something that everybody has to go through? (like puberty)

Next time you see somebody going off all skygoddish. Just remember "pride commeth before the fall".
On the point of newbies knowing nothing useful.....bull.
A beginner who has survived a high speed mal at jump ten for example knows a lot more about that situation than sombody who never had a cutaway in 1000 jumps. If they talk, you would do well to listen. IMHO

[Remster 30]

I think there are 2 issues....
yes, every-ones experience is valuable. What I think pisses off grosfion is the skygoddish attitude of some 100 jump wonder (by the way, the expression "100 jump wonders" does not include anyone with 100 jump; it reffers to a well known attitude in skydiving of some jumpers who go through 100 jump or so with a "i know it all" attitude). Thats not to say that if you have less the 26,000 your opinion is not valuable... it is. But, its the attitude that comes with it that also pisses me off.
So if you have an opinion, plese post it. Be ready to eat crow if you re wrong, and please, realise (truly realise, and live that realisation, dont just aknoledge it) that this sport kills the impatients.
Remster
Muff 914

[PhillyKev 0]

I guess we have to go back to the "I'm not an expert" disclaimer. Personally, I think I have something to learn from everyone, whether they have 10 jumps or a thousand. IMO a lot about this sport is open to interpretation. And a lot of choices you have to make are based on intellect rather than experience. Let's face it, not many people have hours upon hours of freefall time, or thousands of parachute flights, or multiple mals. So any knowledge anyone want to share whether from their own experience or from something they learned from someone I'll never meet is fine by me. I'll take that information, couple it with my own experience and from what I've seen and heard first hand from others and make decisions based on all of those factors, weighting the information appropriately according to the source.
cielos azules y cerveza fría
-Kevin

[Scratch 0]

I wish I did know it all. It would certainly help my skydiving skills.
Skydiving is a cool and rather exclusive sport but if you let it define who and what you are as a person the 'god' complex will surely follow after.

[flyhi 24]

Quote

So please save me your glorious storries what you've learned in just 50 jumps...

I've seen several 50, 73, 100 (your choice) jump wonders see the light when you line them up as the last diver on an eight-way out of a King Air. A high percentage of them either never get to the formation or go right by it. And their reaction on the ground afterwards usually says a lot. Those with questions, are probably going to make it. And those with excuses or accusations ("The base floated" is my favorite.), are either not going to make it in the sport, or are on their way to being the biggest pains in the ass at the DZ...and you've identified them early.
flyhi

[Iflyme 0]

You people who think you know everything make life rough for those of us that DO!
"There's nothing new under the sun"

[freeflir29 0]

Well...Experience is just that. Jump numbers alone are a very poor measure of skill. If you really want to know you have to jump with them or at least take a look through their log book. Jumping with them is the best measure. I have seen people with less than 150 jumps that can fly head down to docks like it was nothing. I saw someone with 150 jumps go to Golden Knight Selection with some very influential signatures on his recomendation. It's all about what you have been spending your time doing. Me.....I stay near my JM in the plane.
"I only have a C license, so I don't know shit..right?"-Clay

[skybytch 273]

At 100 jumps I got a S/L jumpmaster rating and started teaching the first jump course. Did I know everything? Absolutely not. Did I think I knew everything? Absolutely not. But I did know enough to teach someone what they needed to know to make a safe first static line skydive, and I also knew who to go ask or what book to grab if someone had a question I didn't know the answer to. I enjoyed teaching the FJC, not because it made me a skygoddess but because it was a way that I could give back to the sport that had already given me so much - a way I could share some of what I was getting out of it with others.
I've been jumping for 12 years now, approaching 1000 jumps (I will hit that magic number this year For me the coolest thing about this community is that everyone has something to share. Like anyplace on the internet you need to sort the wheat from the chaff.
While I may not listen to what everybody has to say, I value their contributions because I know that what they are really trying to do is share what they've learned (or think they've learned) with others. We have enough highly experienced people here to counter the occasional person who doesn't know what they are talking about. And even though I have been called an expert in some areas, I've learned so many things from the people here - even from people with only 100 jumps.
pull & flare,
lisa
"But our reality is in fact entire illusion!"
-Gregory Benford

[Beeron 0]

Nicely stated Lisa!
"My eyes are dry and my hands are clean
and I can't believe all the things I've seen"
-- Blind Melon

[bbarnhouse 0]

100 jumps to 5000 jumps........there is still something more to learn. It isn't so much the number of jumps but rather the quality and lessons learned in those jumps.
Cheers!
B
It only takes a little pixie dust......

[CReWpilot 0]

I don't lurk around here that much and rarely ever do I post, so the majority of you do not know me. From what I have seen, there is alot of advice being given out by people who, honestly, don't have the experience to give it. I am not trying to step on anybodies toes, but there are alot of people here, (can't make a real judgement since I only know the few of you that jump at my DZ) who seem to be way in over there heads. Now those few of you that do know me will probably say the same thing about me. And yes, I do alot of things that most jumpers think to be a little "too much." Maybe they are right, maybe they aren't. But on the same note, I do it with advice and guidance from people who have been there, have seen what can happen, know wheter or not I am ready and aren't afraid to tell me if I am not. And I listen to them. One thing that I hear over and over here is the phrase "you don't know my skill level." This is usually coming from someone with less jumps than me. This bothers me. More times than not, especcially with just a few hundred jumps, the person that is most ignorant of your skill level is yourself. You get that D-License complex. All of a sudden you know everything. New jumpers start to come up and ask you questions and some of you have probably started doing coach jumps. It is very easy to to get a litlle cocky. I have done alot of new things ( and bought alot of beer) in the past year. And the most noticable thing I have learned, is that the guys a I jump with have a much better knowledge of my skill level than I do. There has been times when I thought I was ready to do something, and I wasn't. There has also been times when I thought I wasn't, and I was ready. The guys I jump with were always able to tell me if I was ready or not, and 99% of the time, they were right. With 400 hundred jumps it is hard to really know what you are fully capable of. Knowing this rarely ever will I give somone advice on how to do any of the things I do other than basic safety advice. Advice on subjects that we all should know. I would never go and give someone advice on how to do a hook turn or how to pack a BASE rig. I ONLY have 400 jumps. When someone comes to me and asks me a question like this I always will refer them to someone else. WIth 400 hundred jumps, I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground. I have a little bit of knowledge about CReW and a little bit about canopies and packing techniques. THAT"S ALL. But this knowledge mostly comes from the expereince of the people I jump with. So i really can't claim it as my own. I haven't been there yet. With only two years in the sport, and am still VERY green. So to make my point a little clearer, before I piss anyone else off, just know who you get your advice from. I have read alot of articles here, that were completely wrong. Now I am not saying that everyone here is wrong, because most of them aren't. Alot of times it is very knowledgable people posting good things here. Chuck, Hooknswoop, RiggerRob, and many others I am leaving out because i can't remember names for shit, all take time to post answers to questions and correct mistakes from others. But to my fellow 400 jump womders, quit spitting out advice on stuff you really know nothing about and SLOW DOWN!! There is no hurry. We are not in a race to the 1st place podium at the Para-Performance Games. Take your time, you will get there. Just don't rush it. In the long run, trying to do to much, to fast is only going to slow you down. You can't swoop the ditch in a wheelchair. I am not saying not to push your limits. You will never get better if you don't, but do it slowly and with advice of QUALIFIED people who have been there. You will get alot further and alot faster than if you try to do it on your own.
Anyway, apologies to those I angered, but I hope I got my point across. Getting of my soapbox now. See ya in freefall.

[TheMarshMan1 0]

Many people say that they "learn something new every jump." If thats really the case, then theres absolutely NOTHING wrong with some giving advice to a lower-time jumper- shouldnt matter how many jumps they have. I dont care if someone has just 5 more jumps than I do- I can still learn from them, and maybe even they can learn from me..who knows. I think that people in the forums, while obviously using discretion, should be able to freely give out advice on topics they have some experience with. It is the responsibility of the person seeking the advice to use discretion as to who they really listen to and to speak with someone at their DZ who knows them about what they've been told. Nobody (or very very few) is an expert at every aspect of this sport, so someone always has something to learn- jump numbers aren't everything. Just my NON-EXPERT opinion, and .02, of course..."If I could be like that, I would give anything, just to live one day, in those shoes..."

[JDBoston 0]

Well said. I agree with you. However, even at only 31 jumps, I DO feel qualified to advise you to use more than one paragraph in the future Joe

[Schroeder 0]

Morning Guys,
Wow, every morning I come in, there's some new debate going on. I love this. It can be very constructive.
After reading everything over, I thought I'd just add a couple lines:
When I first started jumping last spring, I was in a small town alone, with about 2 other jumpers (which I only found out about later), and I turned to the internet as a resource, For:
A) Getting my fix
B) Learning as much as I could
C) Reading about sheep and such.
Over the past year, I lurked quite a bit, posted rarely, and tried to absorb as much as was possible. I think I've done a fairly good job thus far of "separating the wheat from the chaff"; but I have to admit, that there's been times where I'll be reading advice on canopy control, or whatever, only to find out that the advice given was either inaccurate, or ineffective. Sure, most techniques will get you half-way, but there's always that secret little touch, which comes from experience, that makes what you're trying to accomplish all come together.
I'm also a skier, who competes in 'tricks' events (newschool). Years ago, before I ever tried a backflip, my time would be spent researching, rewinding-and-replaying, disecting body position, trying to absorb EVERYTHING from AS MANY SOURCES as was possible. Ask everyone the same question, and take the average answer was my technique. Some things I went into, I went in over my head, and payed for it, with internal damage, broken limbs, etc. Why? Because I rushed it. I wanted to dial in the trick that I saw in the magazine before I was truly ready. We're all guilty of being a little over eager sometimes to try a new position, a new exit, a new whatever, and for the most part that's OK. But when it comes to things, like a backflip, where it'd be easy to snap your neck with one wrong move (and that's skiing, not Skydiving, so multiply the danger factor by about 9.8), we really gotta gather as much info as we can, and not say "oh well, so and so said this on the forum, so I'll go try it". That's what we're all scared of here, seeing someone run out to meet a load, leaving DZ.com advice fresh on the monitor, mouse dangling in the air, while someone types madly to correct it in time. We don't want to lose anyone. So the concern is fair; but I don't think it should lie only on the posts of 'unexpericenced' jumpers. People need to have the common sense to survey as many opinions, techniques, and styles as possible on here, AND in real life. Failing to do so is senseless and I'd like to think, below most of us. We are here because we want to use this resource as one way, of many, to immerse ourselves in the sport and learn something.
Therefore, in closing :), it's _my_ opinion that querying peoples profiles for their jump #'s, and having that value come up on each post would be a good idea. I had no idea that some of the people I was paying attention to knew jack, and that some of the other people were very knowledgable. Of course this isn't based soley on jump #'s, but come on, if you're gonna sit there and say they don't mean something, you're kidding yourself. If lurkers, and posters alike knew each-others in-air experience, along with reading about how they had 2 mals in a row, it'd help to form a better idea of what context to take said advice.
*disclaimer*
The 2-mal example was meant to suggest that his/her experience would be somethng we'd all be wise to listen to.
"If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me?"

[JDBoston 0]

I guess my basic take on it is that, despite what we would like to think, skydiving is not yet a science and there are MANY "holy wars" being fought out there, about everything from gear to body position to canopy control etc.
So while experience does mean better advice MOST of the time, it doesn't ALWAYS. Some things, there isn't only one answer for, and it's best to gather a range of opinions, maybe even from people with jump #'s in the hundreds. Then, when you've asked the same questions of people with thousands of jumps, you can decide who knows their shit & can back it up with factual data, and who you trust.
My $0.02,
Joe

[Iflyme 0]

CReWpilot, thank you for your post. You are absolutely right on. Little old me, with 133 jumps in 4 years (I consider myself a novice, and will for a long time, I'm sure) wouldn't dare consider advising others about skydiving. I'm glad to have people like Riggerrob around to offer up advice to those of us who ask for it. While I certainly know volumes more than newbies, I feel like I am in grade 1 of my skydiving education.
"There's nothing new under the sun"

[billvon 3,076]

>From what I have seen, there is alot of advice being given out by people who,
>honestly, don't have the experience to give it.
I agree, but I have discovered that even low-timers can often make good decisions as to who an expert is and who isn't. At my DZ I've seen several "skygods" who don't know their ass from their elbow going around giving advice to new jumpers, and I would often stop by afterwards and mention that maybe that guy wasn't really qualified to give that advice. 90% of the time, they already knew.
>But to my fellow 400 jump womders, quit spitting out advice on stuff you really
>know nothing about and SLOW DOWN!! There is no hurry.
This is good advice. There are an awful lot of alpha personalities in skydiving, and they always seem to want to be in charge, tell other people what to do. I can remember one rather famous 50-jump wonder holding up his hand to stop an AFF-JM with a student, because he thought the AFF-JM wasn't going to allow enough time between the last freefly that exited. I honestly don't think he really meant that he knew more than the JM, he had just learned something new and wanted to use it.
That's a harmless example. A much more serious example is the guy who sees someone get hurt and runs out to help him, and does things like pulls his helmet off to "help him breathe." That can kill someone, or render then unable to walk. It's hard to just stand by when someone you know has a question (or worse yet, gets hurt) but sometimes it really is the best course of action.
-bill von

[billvon 3,076]

>Is there anything I can do to cancel out the "skygod factor", or is is something
>that everybody has to go through? (like puberty)
Eventually you will hit a wall and realize you suck. It happened to me at 100 jumps. I had just come from a tiny DZ where I was one of the more experienced jumpers, I was working on my SL JM rating, and I had just started jumping at the Ranch. In other words, I was hot shit. Suddenly, I went from being pretty good at 2-ways to sucking at 6-ways. I'd take people out, funnel formations, and go low regularly. People stopped jumping with me. It was a very humbling experience, to realize that what you thought you were good at is actually about .5% of what skydiving is all about.
-bill von

[rapper4mpi 0]

I think the most important thing to know as a student is that many, many people will be giving you advice on many, many aspects of our sport. It is up to you to ask around, get second, third, and fourth opinions. Never stop learning. This fact is always taught in our first jump course, and restated throughout a jumpers progression. Taking advice from someone that is new to a sport can kill you, the same goes for taking advice from an expert. If it doesn't seem right, it probably isn't.
-Rap