Gear Checks

[skycat 0]

Ok Spy38W's post made me think of this, how many of you actually get gear checks in the plane.
I check my gear on the ground, I pack for myself, and am very careful when moving around with it on. I can feel my own main pin, and if I do need a gear check cause something doesn't feel right or I just felt the need for one, I will ask someone I know who knows the kind of rig I jump.
When I jumped a Reflex I refused to let anyone give me a gear check cause of the special way you had to close the main flap so it wouldn't come open in freefall (tucked under only the side flaps not all 3). Well if you opened it with the rig on my back it was almost impossible to get it back in the right place.
Now my Mirage is pretty hard to mess up a gear check unless you completely open the reserve flap instead of just lifting the bottom and looking at the pin, cause it is hard to get reclosed.
Still today on the plane when one of the TM yelled "Make room for the tandems" and I stood up (I'm 5'1 and can stand comfortably in an otter), the guy behind me started giving me a pin check without asking if I wanted one. That made me very nervous, not only cause I didn't know who the guy was, but I had no idea if he knew what he was looking at. Well ofcourse I did a quick re-check to make sure everything was where it should be, and all was fine.
Personally though I prefer for someone to not give me a gear/pin check unless I ask for it, or they ask me if I need one first. Actually if you as me if I need one, especially with my Mirage I will probably say sure, and then ask what color my kill line is just to see if you really checked it.

[Skyrose7 0]

this is something to really think about, especially for newbie's like myself. I just got off student status, and am used to my JM's doing checks in the plane. I check my own, but crammin into a cessna is kind of hard to have someone else do your check. Is me checking not sufficient? I am guessing yes. Thanks for the eye opener. Kind of ticks me off no one mentioned this on graduation. Perhaps it is just one more thing I have to learn and investigate on my own.
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.

[rhino 0]

I'm with you.. I stay pin aware and can feel my own in the plane. If I bump something or have that feeling I have someone look for me.
Semper Fi .....
http:// www.aahit.com

[Rhonda66 0]

I agree. I don't like anyone screwing around with my gear without asking me or my asking them first and I wouldn't touch someone else's unless they asked. It makes me nervous, especially at an unfamiliar DZ.
Rhonda
Rhonda

[n2skdvn 0]

at my dz its customary when we turn in on jump run we start checking each others chest straps,boc's,flaps ,riser covers,pins ect i try and do at least 3 gear checks .
1st before i put the rig on
2nd after i get in the plane
3 rd on final jumprun
dont be afraid to ask for a pin check! it olny takes a second
have fun be safe!!!!
kreg
if ya can't dodge it RAM IT !!!!!!
click me

[n2skdvn 0]

and im not talking about touching the other persons rig
visual checks!! look at the other persons rig if you see somthing wrong tell them!!!
my .02 cents
if ya can't dodge it RAM IT !!!!!!
click me

[diverdriver 6]

Golden Rules of Skydiving
1. Land Safely
2. Land safe, not close
3. Leave room for error
4. Check gear prior to dressing, boarding, and exit
5. Stay ahead of the jump
6. Always have a plan
7. Know thy altitude
8. Know when to say no
9. Never give up
Inside cover of every AFP logbook at Skydive Chicago.
Chris

[bbarnhouse 0]

I always ask for a check, and ask the folks next to me if they would like one.
When flying with the other half of team "High Flying Adored" we have a standing rule to check on the ground and in the aircraft.
One can NEVER have too many safety checks.
It only takes a little pixie dust......

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Personally though I prefer for someone to not give me a gear/pin check unless I ask for it, or they ask me if I need one first.

It is standard procedure at many Dropzones to check the pin of the guy in front of you. This is a good thing, and I wish it was done more frequently.
When you get into that plane not you're just putting your own life at risk, you're also putting MY life at risk, and I don't give a rats ass if you're insecure about me checking your pin.
WAY more skydivers have died from a premature opening in the plane then the guy checking your pin fucking it up. In fact, I'd challenge you to find an example of a fatality with this as the cause... The flipside is that we only have to look to Australia last year to a pilot who barely escaped with a bain-out rig after somebody didn't do a pin check and wripped the tail off a caravan.
Pin checks should be mandatory.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[billvon 3,058]

>When you get into that plane not you're just putting your own life at risk,
>you're also putting MY life at risk, and I don't give a rats ass if you're
>insecure about me checking your pin.
Then I wouldn't jump with you. If you insist on checking my rig, I'm going to talk about it afterwards with you. If you touch my student's rig without me asking you to, one of us isn't jumping at that DZ again.
It's not that I don't think pin checks are a good idea. It's that I don't believe that everyone on the plane is competent to give them. How many people have pin-checked a Northern Light, or can tell at a glance if a Racer RSL is correctly routed, or know what goes wrong with a bellystrap throwout? Not too many, and if you insist at pulling and tugging at such a rig, you may well cause a total or worse.
I am all for keeping an eye on each other's gear. So far I've caught half a dozen incorrectly connected RSL's, including two that would have caused a non-cutaway. I've caught two unthreaded chest straps, one on an incredibly experienced woman just before exit on a record attempt. I've seen innumerable open flaps, and given nearly as many gear checks to people have asked for them. But I don't pull someone else's rig open unless they ask me to, or unless I ask if I can first. I've come to know that I just don't know everything about other people's rigs, and sometimes they know better than me how to take care of their gear.
-bill von

[rhino 0]

Someone starts touching my pin they will get their ass kicked..
Not directed at anyone in particular..
Semper Fi .....
http:// www.aahit.com

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

But I don't pull someone else's rig open unless they ask me to, or unless I ask if I can first. I've come to know that I just don't know everything about other people's rigs, and sometimes they know better than me how to take care of their gear.

I didn't say I was just going to go do it, I said I think it should be standard procedure at the DZ.
And yes, of course I'm not talking students - thats the instructors job. I'm also assuming common gear...
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Hooknswoop 19]

"Personally though I prefer for someone to not give me a gear/pin check unless I ask for it, or they ask me if I need one first."
You replied:
"When you get into that plane not you're just putting your own life at risk, you're also putting MY life at risk, and I don't give a rats ass if you're insecure about me checking your pin."
and:
"I didn't say I was just going to go do it, I said I think it should be standard procedure at the DZ."
You implied that you don't care if someone does not want to get their pin checked, you would do it anyway. If you started opening my flaps and poking around, you would not like my response. I guarantee that you do not know as much about my rig as I do. I am extremely careful w/ my rig. I don't feel the need for pin checks unless I bump my rig hard enough to move a pin, then I will check it myself. I have watched pin protection flaps get opened and then closed less securely than they were before the pin check. I have seen people get on the plane w/ their reserve flap open. I do not want these people checking my pins.
I was under the impression the Australia incident was caused by popping the reserve pin on climb-out. A pin check in the plane would not have changed anything in that was the case. Only being very careful w/ your rig (and tight pins and good pin protection) will prevent that. Constantly opening and closing flaps wears them out and makes them less secure.
Has anyone ever noticed on the older style Javelins that some of them the reserve flap is bent at almost a 90-degree angle away from the rig? How did it get that way? When the jumper sits down and jams the flap against the windowsill or airframe every time they sit down, it eventually gets bent.
Hook

[jceman 1]

I posted this on another thread, but felt it appropriate to add to this one also:
Let me tell you about another angle to this -- if you see something say something. Last weekend at ZHills, Lynn and I gave each other our customary gear checks, me checking her first, ending with her slapping the back of my container to show all is ok. After we got to 1000', I undid my helmet and seatbelt, reached to my chest strap to take it out of the keeper and get my goggles and what do I see? My chest strap is misrouted! I tapped Lynn on the shoulder and pointed it out to her, saying "You missed something." She said she had seen it but "knew you would see it when you got your goggles."
When we got down, I went over the whole thing -- what if we had had to get out before I retrieved my goggles, etc.?
Lynn knows my routine and felt that because of it there was no problem -- I reminded her that the routine is not always under my control; I then told her the bottom line -- if you see something, say something!
I have done this with people far more experienced than I -- the reactions have been one of two: they were not aware of the problem I pointed out and thanked me, or they were aware of the situation and had a plan (like my goggles), but thanked me anyway for being alert. Never got laughed at or had someone get mad at me. I can't stress this too much -- if you see something, say something!

[billvon 3,058]

>I didn't say I was just going to go do it, I said I think it should be standard procedure at the DZ.
So you _do_ give a rat's ass if I'm too "insecure" to have you messing with my pin covers? Good to hear. Getting a gear check is common practice at our DZ, BTW. I just prefer to check my own gear.
-bill von

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

You implied that you don't care if someone does not want to get their pin checked, you would do it anyway.

I'm a bit hung over, so I'm trying valiantly to organize some coheisive thoughts.
I can see how it sounded that way.... What I was trying to get at is my frustration at people who just don't bother to have at least their mains checked, either doing it yourself or having someone else do it. I don't put any trust in a jumper in the plane that I don't know. It might be you, it might be a 20 jump wonder who doesn't even know what a pin check is. I'd like to see SOME indication that they're at least concerned about the pin. A main pin check (at least) should be part of the two minute warning run gear check either done yourself or by the guy behind you, In my ever so humble opinion.
Not that I disagree with either you or Bill, but there's too many people out there who don't seem to have good reasons for not doing it. I'm concerned that most (hell, practically all) jumpers aren't nearly as familiar with their gear as you are. Most jumpers won't recognize when they've knocked their main pin or not. I'm also concerned that many people seem have your attitute without having your level famliarity with their gear. The way that we pack jumpers into planes, it's just so easy to have the pin shift as you're sitting down, or whatever.
I still believe that checking the pin of the guy in front of you is a good rule. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, but this makes a good starting point. One exception is you doing it yourself. Another is the instructor doing it for the student.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Skyrose7 0]

umm, I didn't say anything like this

Quote

Personally though I prefer for someone to not give me a gear/pin check unless I ask for it, or they ask me if I need one first.

I only said thanks for the eye opener....
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.

[Skyrose7 0]

Quote

It might be you, it might be a 20 jump wonder who doesn't even know what a pin check is.

If someone has over two jumps and doesn't know what a pin check is, there is a problem and that person should not be jumping. Being a "20 jump wonder" I realize that I am still ignorant about skydiving, but that is why I am here. I think that is one of the reasons we are all here. TO learn.
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.

[rhino 0]

o.k. all.. time to take a chill pill and calm down a bit.. Semper Fi .....
http:// www.aahit.com

[dove 0]

I check my gear before I put it on, self-check in the loading area, and always get another pair of eyes to check it before I jump out the door (and I always appreciate if someone isn't comfortable giving a gear check and tells me to ask someone else). I give visual checks to everyone in my line of vision and only touch others' gear if they ask or if I notice something awry and get their ok to check it.
Question for Billvon.... I know I SHOULD know this and you probably can't give a great explanation with no visuals, but how would I know by looking that an RSL is misrouted? Thanks!
dove

[n2skdvn 0]

boobiesif ya can't dodge it RAM IT !!!!!!
click me

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

how would I know by looking that an RSL is misrouted?

Ahhh...it's attatched?
"ahhhhoo...the little guy hasn't done anything yet and you know its going to be good..."

[billvon 3,058]

>but how would I know by looking that an RSL is misrouted?
Common mistakes: connected to the small ring of the 3-ring release instead of the small ring on the riser (very bad) or connected to part of the cutaway cable housing (not too bad - just won't work.) If the RSL itself is routed _under_ the reserve risers, that's also bad, but rare. Many people connect the RSL to the cutaway cable housing intentionally to disable it and keep it out of the way.
On a Racer, if the RSL is routed so that it is not free to depart the rig when the main is cutaway, you'll have a cutaway failure. This is tough because a correctly-routed Racer RSL looks a bit wrong to begin with - the routing is sort of complex and not always 100% clean. A Racer RSL is more likely to have a problem because it forms a large loop of webbing, not just a short leash to the reserve ripcord cable.
Also, many people have modified the Racer RSL for single sided operation, which adds yet another factor. Fortunaltely, most mods make it look like other rigs, so it's less of an issue.
-bill von

[dove 0]

Bill,
Thank you so much! Great explanation, as usual. You da man!
dove

[Rhonda66 0]

I have two views on this -
1. I don't feel, with 200 jumps, that I know everyone's gear well so sometimes I actually feel uncomfortable when someone asks me to check their pins so I definitely agree with you that everyone is not capable of giving everyone else a pin check.
2. On the other hand, as an instructor maybe you feel that you would always remember to check your own pin because you have so much experience. However, on my Level 7 AFF jump 5 years ago my instructor's reserve pin was dislodged in the plane and we had a big old mess in freefall and 2 chutes out in a spinning downplane afterwards. We found the packer's tag in the plane afterwards. Fortunately my instructor made it out of it okay, but perhaps it could have been avoided if I, or anyone else on the plane, just took a minute to peek under the reserve flap just to make sure...
Personally, no I don't like others to check my pins without asking or being asked, but I think everyone should have their pins checked by someone else in the plane before exit whether it be a friend, an instructor or anyone else you know you can trust.
My JM, the person I trusted the most, put both of us at risk and everyone else in that plane, demonstrating that it can happen to anyone - it's not just the low timers who screw up and need their gear checked - sometimes I think that students are the safest because they are constantly reminded of the dangers - As we get more jumps under our belts and become more and more comfortable with our gear and skydiving in general, I think that is when we start cutting corners and becoming more carefree and careless -
Rhonda