Gear Checks

[AggieDave 6]

Honestly, I really don't want someone checking my gear once I put it on. Before I put my gear on, I check both my pins, the collapsible, etc, etc. Also, since I'm freeflying a Vector II, I route the bridle how I want it, close the cover and I want it kept that way. When people start moving my cover and checking stuff, they don't always put the cover back correctly or in the process they can pull bridle out, either way that spells disaster for a FFer.
If I'm in the plane and my rig got bounced around, hit, etc, then I will ask someone I know and trust to check me, otherwise I really don't want you near my pins.
"ahhhhoo...the little guy hasn't done anything yet and you know its going to be good..."

[Rhonda66 0]

That's all fine to say now, but I'm sure my instructor felt the same way and he had no idea that his pin was dislodged during the ride to altitude - he could have known if someone checked, even himself - it's your perogative to have your pin checked if you want it checked or not have it checked if you don't want it checked, but it would really suck to become a statistic if a pin became dislodged and you weren't aware of it - and it would suck even more if your chute deployed on exit and brought down a plane full of people.....I guess you have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages and make your own decision. Still, I saw it happen to my own instructor and it scared the hell out of me so I know it could happen to anybody.
Rhonda

[Hooknswoop 19]

Again, it sounds like your instructor dislodged his/her pin on exit. I wasn't there but if it was, then again a pin check wouldn't have made a difference.
I teach students that w/ enough moving around, the pins will be dislodged. So limit movement, be aware of what you are leaning against, and treat the rig very carefully. I make a big deal about it if they slam thier reserve pin against the aircraft when they sit down or rub it on the bar above the door on exit.
If the pins are correct on the ground and you pay attention, pin checks are unnecessary unless something unusual happens. I have hit my rig against something in the plane and checked my pin to make sure I didn't dislodge it. I had a friend that set it up w/ me to always look w/o touching at his reserve pin. He would turn so I could see between the flap and the container and see the pin. I use the look but don't touch method of giving pin checks as much as possible and only if the person asks for a pin check. I do spend time in the aircraft glancing around at three rings, chest straps, RSL's, pin covers, etc looking for problems and have caught quite a few.
Hook

[Rhonda66 0]

Hi -
Nope, it was dislodged long before exit at the front of the otter where we were sitting...
Rhonda

[Zennie 0]

I'm kinda in between.
I don't mind someone giving me a pin check, since I jump a Vector III and it's really hard to screw up closing the flaps. People have asked me to pin check their Racers and I always hate it because the flaps close funky. A couple times I've asked others to double-check my close job on them cuz I didn't feel comfortable that I had done it right.
Now reserve flap is another story. I really don't like people messing with it on the plane because the flaps close funky. If it's another Vector/Mirage flier I'm not as concerned.
About a week ago, someone had their pin pop on a rig (couldn't tell what kind). We had to let the pilot know that a rig was open and the person had to lie down, with another guy taking a pullup cord and re-closing it the rest of the ride up. Got it finished by jump run. Whew!
"Zero Tolerance: the politically correct term for zero thought, zero common sense."

[Hooknswoop 19]

Sorry- I misunderstood. To make sure I understand (this time :-), your instructor dislodged his reserve pin, launching his spring loaded reserve PC, walked to the door w/ you (dragging his PC), exited, and pulled his main to get two chutes out while you went on a solo AFF level 7.
I am almost positive I still do not have it right. I am not trying to be sarcastic, but show you how I am (mis)interpreting story so you know where I am confused at. Thanks,
Hook

[rhino 0]

Damn Hook.. For not being sarcastic that was funny shit Semper Fi .....
http:// www.aahit.com

[rhino 0]

LMFAO
I'm sorry.. I find something about this funny as hell..

Semper Fi .....
http:// www.aahit.com

[AggieDave 6]

Zenster,
So I'm guessing that the jumper wasn't near the door when that happened? Or it happened very smoothly, softly...in other words, the container just popped, nothing really fell out, etc? Personally I would get a little excited if someone's container fell open w/ stuff falling out of it if they were near the door, especially if the door was open (as they tend to lend themselves on Otters in the summer "ahhhhoo...the little guy hasn't done anything yet and you know its going to be good..."

[bbarnhouse 0]

now children..play nicely!
It only takes a little pixie dust......

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

now children..play nicely!

*looking around* I thought we were, I'm just curious about how/what happened in detail, since I've never been in that situation, I want to see what happened in more detail so I can learn from it. "ahhhhoo...the little guy hasn't done anything yet and you know its going to be good..."

[bbarnhouse 0]

Sure is a lot to learn huh? I have been given all kinds of info today, this is great!
Cheers
It only takes a little pixie dust......

[Rhonda66 0]

Yeah, it was dislodged before we left, but nothing came out until after we were in freefall - the instructor had no clue. It mal'd and was stuck in a sort of horseshoe configuration right over his head right up until pull time - I backslid and tried to signal to him and he kept motioning to me to do my Level 7 manuevers, but I just wanted to get the hell away from the mess. I pulled high and he fell to normal pull altitude, pulled normal and the PC cleared and both the reserve and main launched simultaneously - or so he says at that point because all I saw was the two chutes already out and spinning in a downplane after I pulled.
He said that one set of risers was across his neck and he had a very hard time cutting the main away, but he was eventually able to and landed under just the reserve....
Got it now everyone? It was a really freak situation and I almost quit after witnessing it.......
I did get to do Level 7 again for free and I passed :)
Rhonda

[Hooknswoop 19]

I'm almost there. Nothing, including the PC came out until he was in freefall? How long after exit did something, and what was it, come off his back? What was his body position when it did come off his back? Where was the reserve PC in freefall? Was anything out of the container besides the reserve PC? How did your instructor exit, diving, float inside the plane, next to you? What was your exit? Do you know what kind/size rig he was wearing?
Again, I can't visualize what happened. I don't know what would make a reserve pin come out of the loop in freefall, create a horse shoe mal (so much for the wide bridle/free-bag concept) w/o an instructor noticing. If the pin gets dislodged, the spring loaded PC fires, which is pretty noticable and it is pretty difficult to make a reserve hore shoe. I hope you can understand my sincere confusion.
Hook

[PhreeZone 20]

Hook... your not alone, I'm confused too.... Did the PC material on the reserve PC start flaffing in the breeze and this is what lead to the reserve pin being pulled? I'm thinking like on a Javelin halfin the pin pulled son onle like half an inch of the pin is still holding and the pilot chute material pops out from under the stowed PC and caused it to open some how....
How far am I from what happened? I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[Rhonda66 0]

I totally do - I can't even really explain it myself still, but I swear to you it happened. If I knew what gear he was jumping, I could probably explain better, but I don't know. This happened in Pepperell nearly 5 years ago when I was a student and the instructor wasn't my regular JM and I haven't seen him in years. I wish the instructor was out here so he could tell his version of the story.
We exited from 13K out of an otter - I tended to get unstable on exit during AFF which I did. I beleive I was at about 11K when I got stable and looked at my JM. He was in a stable belly to earth position as was I. There was fabric, which at the time looked like part of a canopy, but must have been the PC, sticking out of the container and just hanging right behind his head and also what looked like bridle to me just flapping around - it was clear that something was wrong. If he had a spring-loaded pilot chute I can't explain why it didn't launch...it just looked like it was snagged.
I backslid and kept shaking my head no when he signaled for me to do my manuevers and he just looked sort of aggrevated. It didn't look to me like he ever thought something was wrong with his gear and he never looked up - just at me - thinking everything was fine and I was crazy for not doing my manuevers.
I got really scared and started to wobble so I pulled a little high. When I looked down, 2 chutes were out and he was spinning bad. I saw the main finally release and I watched him land under just the reserve.
I told Fran what I saw and they kind of looked at me like I was nuts because I guess they would have expected the same thing you did and I was only a student, but then they found his rigger's packing seal in the back of the plane where we had been sitting and decided that the pin was in fact dislodged when we were still in the plane and my JM said that he had been moving around a bit - we sat on the floor of the otter then and he had his back against the wall behind the pilot.
I just asked my husband who was with me that day if he ever heard anything more about it or if he could explain what happened now that he has 400+ jumps and he said no. They had asked me to fill out a report about what I saw, but I didn't jump for a while and I never did it.
My JM said I did the right thing because I felt bad that I didn't do anything. He said all I could have done was signalled to him and I really tried to. He said he would have smacked me if I tried to pull any of his handles, which I know I couldn't have done anyway at the time.
Can you/anyone explain this series of events because I've always wanted to know what the heck happened on my Level 7 #1? It was the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life so I can't even imagine how my JM felt at the time...We were all just very happy that he was ok and I didn't think to ask any questions. The jump isn't even properly logged in my AFF logbook due to all of the excitement that day.....
Believe me, I understand your confusion completely - you're only getting my student version of the events that day and now, as an experienced skydiver, I still can't explain it any better than that...
Rhonda

[Hooknswoop 19]

The only thing I can think of it that it was an old two pin system (w/ the pins on the back of the rig)and he dislodged one pin. Some bridle snaked out along w/ part of the PC. As he stood up after pitching his main PC, the wind caught his reserve PC, deploying the reserve.....Wild speculation on my part, but it is the only thing I can think of. I haven't seen a two-pin reserve (except for the Racer and the pins are against the jumpers back on that rig) in a long time. Bill, can you help?
Hook

[Jabeln79 0]

I check my gear before i jump and im sure you all check your own, If you want me to check your gear no problem but why go touching other peoples rigs if they dont ask.
Blue Skies
Joe
"When they say jump you say how high" RATM

[Michele 1]

I will always ask for a gear check from an experienced jumper, because I am NOT an experienced jumper. I'll do it for myself as I am getting geared up, but will always make sure someone who knows a ton more than me checks it, just in case I missed something. Never have so far, but that doesn't mean it won't... As for getting one in the plane, I usually can get one from an instructor or experienced jumper if I have bonked it somehow.
But I don't think I am familiar enough with someone else's gear to give a valid and comprehensive one to them. Just looking at them and saying "well, it looks good" just isn't good enough, you know? It's their life - and I'd rather, for the time being, let them get their gear checks from soeone who konws whatinhell they're looking at rather than me.
I will add this thought: whomever said "if you see it, say it", they are totally right. I spotted a free chest strap on someone, and pointed it out. He cheerfully chewed me out, telling me that of course he knew it was loose, he'd do it up at altitude (we were at about 2500 at the time), how stupid did I think he was? To which one of the instructors on the plane cheerfully told him to fuck off, she's only looking out for your safety, asshole, to which the first guy with the loose chest strap had the good sense to look ashamed, but didn't manage to mumble an apology, only a "fucking skygod" in the instructor's general direction.....
I talked to the S&TA, and told him about it. Jack reassured me that if I see something like that, to always say it, and never assume that somone knows - they likely do, but maybe not. And how would I feel if something happened on that jump and I had noticed it and not said anything about it because I was intimidated?
Ed White while gearing up for my very first jump, said something which I always follow: get on the plane the way youd survive getting off the plane. Emergencies are called emergencies for a reason.
just my .02, late on a Sunday evening, after a long day at work, while you jumped in the blue.....and I watched, far away and longing, from the ground, in the air with my mind if not with my body....
Ciels and pinks-
Michele
If you really want to, you can seize the day; if you really want to, you can fly away...
~enya~

[canopycudler 0]

i'm kinda with ya on that one.. I always look at chest straps..when were dirt divin... but other than that.. i don't go touchin anyones rig.. I don't mind if anyone that I TRUST gives me a gear check... but i don't want someone right off student status doing it.. i acutally had an incident kinda similar to that this weekend.. and it was with a C Lic jumper (joe you know who i'm talkin about).. I had just checked the gar and he went and pulled flaps out.. and adjusted my closing pin.. I have it where i like it for jumping the 230 STUFFED in the 190 container.. ITS TIGHT as hell and i always position it one way.. suggested by a JM to avoid towing my pilot chute..it didn't get ugly or anything.. but i think i came off a little pissy.. not that i even care.. but anywayy....
Busses here don't work. I am an asshole.
...Tina

[billvon 3,058]

>But I don't think I am familiar enough with someone else's gear to give a valid and comprehensive one to them.
This is an important thing to learn, one many experienced jumpers do not. I've had experienced jumpers try to pry the reserve PC off my Reflex so they could give me a pin check, and more than one try to close my riser cover and fail. It can be worse than useless if you give someone a pin check and aren't sure what to look for. (and even experienced jumpers may not have not seen every rig, or understand every rig option.)
>whomever said "if you see it, say it", they are totally right.
Yep. I think the best thing you can do for other jumpers on the load is to just keep your eyes open. There's one place no one can see - the back of their rigs - and just watching what goes on there can be a big help (as well as the more obvious problems, like chest straps and cutaway handles.)
-bill von

[billvon 3,058]

>Wild speculation on my part, but it is the only thing I can think of. I haven't seen >a two-pin reserve (except for the Racer and the pins are against the jumpers
>back on that rig) in a long time.
I can also think of the Swift and Northern Light, both external 2-pin reserves. In the case of the Swift, one broken/popped pin would not cause a PC launch, but would allow some reserve material to become exposed. If I recall the Racer reserve closing loop correctly, a single popped pin could theoretically cause a PC launch, since the closing loop was one continuous piece, but it generally would not, since it doesn't slide freely through the PC. It, too, would allow some reserve material (bridle mainly) to come free if only one loop came free. I don't remember the Northern Light's reserve system.
Also interesting is that if the JM was jumping a Racer, a pin check would not have helped avoid the situation - the pins are not inspectable by another jumper once the rig is on.
-bill von

[rgoper 0]

i prefer that no one ever check my gear without my request, and i watch for people who like to do that very thing. i'm really careful about my gear as well. as for someone "voluntarilly checking my gear, they would get there hand slapped away. i jump with a lot of people that know me, and a lot of us fly the same brand(s) of equipment, and we give each other gear checks. having said that, i have told others, when they asked me to give them a pin check, and if i'm not familiar with there gear, i will simply tell them that i feel i'm not qualified to check there gear, simple enough. be safe, take care.
Richard
"It's Not The Fall That Hurts You, It's The Sudden Stop"
I was on the load zenmeister was referring to, if i would have been that particular jumper, i would have rode the plane down. for the simple reason that a "chain" of events had already begun, and he was going to be jumping with others on that particular dive. my opinion only......

[Remster 30]

A few more points to discuss re. gear checks...
after you check all the pins and what-have-you on your buddy's rig, do NOT give a few slaps on the container.... you just checked the pins, why do you want to possibly move them? (I know, almost no chance of doing so, but why even tempt chance???)
When we moved to the UK, we were a bit taken back by the "analness" of the regulations here... when you're geared up and go to the boarding area, you must get you gear checked by someone else, and the preson who checked it signs you off on the manifest sheet. Maybe a bit overboard, but its not un-reasonable.
Remster
Muff 914

[Rhonda66 0]

I imagine that you are right - now I really want to find out. Next time I go to Pepperell I'll see if anyone remembers what exactly happened that day.
Yes, that would be interesting if it was a Racer - then I can just go stick a sock in my mouth about the gear checks :)
Rhonda