jumpwally 0 #1 February 27, 2014 In the airport the other day,,standing in line for a drink, i noticed a guy with a back pack, like the kind you use for school. It looked like a name brand ( don't remember it ) but the buckle hardware was identical to that of a car seatbelt buckle, the kind with the button in the middle. Looked neat, very simple, proven design,,,so why wouldn't we use something like that as a chest strap,,,,nice reassuring click,,maybe less undone chest straps,,maybe more blown out teeth,,, i don't know,,,discuss,,carve it up,,flame it , destroy it...smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #2 February 27, 2014 heavy, more cost, can it unbuckle under load (like an aircraft seat belt for instance), getting hit in the face by it, ability to loosen it under canopy, etc, etc.... a solution searching for a problem...NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #3 February 27, 2014 Reckon it would be pretty easy to open one of those in freefall, and once it's open, it's really open. The existing design has a big advantage in that when it's closed, opening it again takes a bit of fiddling. You can maybe loosen it, but it's still basically closed. On the upside, it would look hilarious, which is worth something.-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #4 February 27, 2014 jumpwally ...discuss,,carve it up,,flame it , destroy it... Got your asbestos longies on? The first few thoughts that come to mind (in no particular order): Is the buckle TSO'd? Can it meet TSO standards? What would it take (a big pile of money)? How strong is it? What are it's failure modes? - Will it fail to lock or unlock? What happens when it wears? How easy is it to accidentally release? I'm sure I will think of more, but that is what comes to mind."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boogers 0 #5 February 27, 2014 You DO NOT want a chest strap to be opened easily... The main design principle is that it simply stay in-place, no matter what. There are stories of army paratroopers with those gizmos on their chest to which four straps are attached, and secured with the turn of a knob. Well, some of those guys have landed, and the knob un-turns one last click and all four straps fall off... Not a good idea for sport free fall or under parachute. But a good idea for quick egress when nazis are shooting at you. Chest straps are also common hand holds for group exits. Do you want to risk someone's finger or thumb pushing that button just as they pull you out the door? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #6 February 27, 2014 I dunno about car type releases. Some must be certified somewhere to some standard. I have seen paragliding-style releases, that require pressing in a tab at both sides, used on non TSO BASE gear, both on chest and leg straps. Maybe a bit scary for those of us used to step-in or thread-through hardware; and less so to those used to snaps and quick ejector snaps. One brand are the Cobra releases that Paragear sells. One example of the many is this one: http://www.paragear.com/skydiving/10000091/H5056/. Heavier and costlier than the simple MS70101 style buckles we use. (Cheaper and lighter than an old 60's quick release snap though.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisD 0 #7 February 27, 2014 wolfriverjoe ***...discuss,,carve it up,,flame it , destroy it... Got your asbestos longies on? The first few thoughts that come to mind (in no particular order): Is the buckle TSO'd? Can it meet TSO standards? What would it take (a big pile of money)? How strong is it? What are it's failure modes? - Will it fail to lock or unlock? What happens when it wears? How easy is it to accidentally release? I'm sure I will think of more, but that is what comes to mind. Lets talk a little bit about some of this TSO and hardware in the same sentence thing,.... Lets talk about welded rings in comparison to forged rings. Lets talk about old military specifications, which most people can't even find anymore as compared to the boating industry, which is where the majority of our hardware comes from. My point is don't believe that some esoteric standard, that is very loosely enforced is the final word. You think every piece of hardware is TSO approved, or comes from a totally reliable source???? I've been to UPT and CPS and I have to tell ya there is a totally different mind set as to where your hardware comes from, those two places know exactly where their hardware comes from, they have the certifications and lot numbers to inspect, trace and control everything. OTHER places, well lets just say their is a world of difference in quality control. So to hang your hat on somebody's word about something meets TSO as compared with those that have your safety and their business in mind is a big mistake in my opinion. There was no "bin" of TSO rings when the first three ring was invented, so how does that fit into your point about equipment meeting some standard???? Don't hang your hat on hardware meeting some standard when there is more to it than such a simpletons view of hardware. I wish more people would just take a greater interest in some of this stuff, hold it in your hand, do you know what to look for, is the chrome plating flaking, does it look cheep? Stuff like that, ask someone else, my point being just don't trust some paperwork or standard, there's lots of great hardware out there without paperwork but can you tell the difference??? Who's interests are the players interested in? Your idea about the goofy'ness of this idea is perhaps a great idea after all,... if it promotes some discussion about being more gear aware!!! Thanks for the question! I spend my time thinking how to remove as much hardware from design as possible, if I can remove just one grommet from a rig, and also improve reliability and performance, as well as safety, then that is a goal,... certainly not trying to decrease the reliability of a system by increasing it's dependence on mechanical means. Incidentally there are millions of rigs throughout the world with lots of snap buckles and spring loaded stuff. The bulk, the added weight, and the added cost were found to be not necessary for civilian jumping. As well as the mandatory equipment jump checks, both on the ground, in the air, and at the packing table. WE have enough forgetful people now without adding additional failure points into the equation. Just my two cents. CBut what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #8 February 27, 2014 This has already been done long ago. This is the dial of death that he was referring to. It's actually a perfectly workable system that was/is? used for years. I don't think there is any TSO per say on any parachute hardware. Yes a lot of the old military hardware had a mill spec on it but that was a military requirement. I think it's a good thing but three rings don't have a mill spec or at least they didn't when they came out. I'm not sure what the story was once they started putting them on military rigs. But three rings, hip rings, newer stainless steel buckles, never saw a mill spec number on any of them. A catalog number from the foundries that make them. All of whom are good reputable companies. I think that you would find more documentation on a aircraft seat belt. They ARE TSO'd. The auto industry is under the DOT I would assume there is similar paper work for them. I don't see any thing barring you from TSOing a rig with seat belt or any other hard ware on it. As long as it can pass the TSO test and you can provide the necessary materials tracking information from your supplier then I think you're good to go. The question of whether it's a good idea is a another question. It's even worse then snagging a quick ejector snap. Found a pic. Dial of death... http://heritageflightgeardisplays.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/2521cfvbzvg25212k257e25242528kgrhquokkme0eds0fclbnuubt5h-q257e257e_12.jpg LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #9 February 27, 2014 I don't get the 'why'... what's the problem that you're looking to solve? Routing a cheststrap isn't the most complex thing in the world, and for the tiny percentage that can't even do that you're introducing multiple failure points for the majority of skydivers... I love the current chest strap design - the absolute minimum of sewn attachments or joined hardware. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #10 February 27, 2014 Speaking of QE hardware ~ http://www.besportier.com/archives/oakley-kitchen-sink-backpack.jpg I travel quite a bit - I have one of these Oakley 'Kitchen Sink' backpacks. ...had a TSA guy ask what kind of parachute it was! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #11 February 28, 2014 I've got the same back pack and I've gotten quite a few interesting looks because of it."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #12 February 28, 2014 QEs on a backpack? WTF?50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #13 February 28, 2014 monkycndo QEs on a backpack? WTF? It ain't for the weight savings! It's a gimmick...they also make one with 3 ring type hardware closing the main compartment. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #14 February 28, 2014 It would look hilarious,,thats why i wanted to discuss,,, smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #15 February 28, 2014 TSO,,smear es O,,,if it passes auto crash tests,,i'll bet TSO would be a snap....thanxsmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #16 February 28, 2014 This was not like an airline seat belt,,,more like a 70's car belt,,button deep in the middle,,,not too easy,,but not too hardsmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #17 February 28, 2014 hhmmm...remove grommets, eh ? So you are one of those guys,,,if i could sneek a five pound weight safely in your rig you and the canopy wouldn't know it,,,your skydive and landing would be normal i'll bet and whats all the weight of rig metal,,maybe a pound, pound and a half ? Good God man,,,,i'm trying to have a little fun your,,,every post you make is like the Gettysburg address,,,,relax,,don't take your self so serioussmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #18 February 28, 2014 Dude,,there is no why....i saw something interesting,,and asked "what about it ? " just a discussion,,nothing more...i didn't break ground on the chianese factory that i was going to have build it.... smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Boogers 0 #19 February 28, 2014 RiggerLeeFound a pic. Dial of death... http://heritageflightgeardisplays.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/2521cfvbzvg25212k257e25242528kgrhquokkme0eds0fclbnuubt5h-q257e257e_12.jpg Yeah, that's it! Sometimes that dial gets turned after you insert the four connecting straps. And then all you have to do is accidentally tap that dial to make them all fall off. Imagine after landing your parachute and fiddling with taking off your gear. You try to turn the dial only to find it won't turn. And then you have the sudden realization that it won't turn because it's ALREADY turned. And that all they way down you were just one tap on that dial away from falling out of your harness... Kind of like the few instances we've had where the 3-ring cutaway cable has almost come out of the riser loops except for the very tip of the cable, and the only thing holding the risers onto the harness was the tension while under canopy. When the jumper lands and the tension is released, the canopy falls off. Ack! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #20 February 28, 2014 Quotethe only thing holding the risers onto the harness was the tension while under canopy. When the jumper lands and the tension is released, the canopy falls off. Ack! Had a regular jumper do just this at our dz, she landed and one riser disconnected once her weight was off the risers... she had decided to trim her cutaway cables the night before since they in her opinion were way too long... told her to go buy a lottery ticket as her luck was running very good. too close... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #21 February 28, 2014 pchapmanI dunno about car type releases. Some must be certified somewhere to some standard. I have seen paragliding-style releases, that require pressing in a tab at both sides, used on non TSO BASE gear, both on chest and leg straps. Maybe a bit scary for those of us used to step-in or thread-through hardware; and less so to those used to snaps and quick ejector snaps. One brand are the Cobra releases that Paragear sells. One example of the many is this one: http://www.paragear.com/skydiving/10000091/H5056/. Heavier and costlier than the simple MS70101 style buckles we use. (Cheaper and lighter than an old 60's quick release snap though.) Know a master rigger who modified his own rig, chest strap and legstraps with the Cobra buckles. Looked cool, but as stated up thread, a solution looking for a problem.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #22 February 28, 2014 Boogers***Found a pic. Dial of death... http://heritageflightgeardisplays.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/2521cfvbzvg25212k257e25242528kgrhquokkme0eds0fclbnuubt5h-q257e257e_12.jpg Yeah, that's it! Sometimes that dial gets turned after you insert the four connecting straps. And then all you have to do is accidentally tap that dial to make them all fall off. Imagine after landing your parachute and fiddling with taking off your gear. You try to turn the dial only to find it won't turn. And then you have the sudden realization that it won't turn because it's ALREADY turned. And that all they way down you were just one tap on that dial away from falling out of your harness... Kind of like the few instances we've had where the 3-ring cutaway cable has almost come out of the riser loops except for the very tip of the cable, and the only thing holding the risers onto the harness was the tension while under canopy. When the jumper lands and the tension is released, the canopy falls off. Ack! That 4 point 'dial' release pictured is different that the ones I've seen...I have one somewhere around here. They have a 'clip' that goes on the release behind the dial which locks it closed as far as ya can't 'push' the dial back to release it. Even if it's turned to the unlock position the clip blocks the release. They were used IIRC for airborne rigs & some PEP's back in the day...as with a 5 point release in a race car - sometimes it's a GOOD thing to get the harness off fast. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #23 February 28, 2014 diablopilot ***I dunno about car type releases. Some must be certified somewhere to some standard. I have seen paragliding-style releases, that require pressing in a tab at both sides, used on non TSO BASE gear, both on chest and leg straps. Maybe a bit scary for those of us used to step-in or thread-through hardware; and less so to those used to snaps and quick ejector snaps. One brand are the Cobra releases that Paragear sells. One example of the many is this one: http://www.paragear.com/skydiving/10000091/H5056/. Heavier and costlier than the simple MS70101 style buckles we use. (Cheaper and lighter than an old 60's quick release snap though.) Know a master rigger who modified his own rig, chest strap and legstraps with the Cobra buckles. Looked cool, but as stated up thread, a solution looking for a problem. During a meet back in the 70's I watched a guy land under a round reserve then chop the reserve so he wouldn't get dragged... He had a pair of 'jet' releases on the reserve risers . . . they looked very similar to the cobra ones attached below. That rig was instantly grounded - another example of a solution making more problems than it fixes. Saw that guy at a boogie the following year - still using the rig. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #24 March 1, 2014 airtwardo During a meet back in the 70's I watched a guy land under a round reserve then chop the reserve so he wouldn't get dragged... He had a pair of 'jet' releases on the reserve risers . . . they looked very similar to the cobra ones attached below. That rig was instantly grounded - another example of a solution making more problems than it fixes. Saw that guy at a boogie the following year - still using the rig. IIRC the rocket jet hardware was used to attach pilot harnesses to ejection seats like the Kock hardware. I have two short risers with rocket jets in the middle to use for intentional cutaways with a chest mount. I wouldn't have two much concern about rocket jets on the reserve but not TSO'd design. As a military contract item you could make a bad argument that they could be used but the rest of the structure not tested.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #25 March 1, 2014 And Rocket Jet releases were used to connect the reserve on the Para-Twin rig, fully TSO'd I assume. (Although on the one rig I saw, a cotter pin was added as another level of safety, but I'm not sure if the rig came that way originally) (Indeed, councilman, twardo, and I all contributed to a thread a few years ago about Rocket Jet releases.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
