More HMA

[Hooknswoop 19]

I talked to Icarus today and here is what I learned about HMA lines.
I carus has done some preliminary testing and has discovered that HMA offerrs very little (72.9 Newtons for HMA vs. 72.5 Newtons for 550 Vectran on an 89, VX, I think) drag reduction. HMA seems to last the same as vectran, but doesn't show wear like Vectran, so when the line is bad, it breaks w/o much if any warning. They also found that while it is dimensionally more stable than Spectra, it isn't as stable as Vectran, which is critical on very small canopys. Apparently HMA costs about half of what Vectran costs. They tested the continious lines and the test jumpers didn't like the set up. I beleive they are going look at HMA some more before they decide if they will offer it on their canopys.
I asked what they thought of PA re-lining Icarus canopys w/ a line that hasn't been approved and removing their labels from their canopys and they didn't know PA was doing it. That got me thinking, would PD re-line a PA canopy w/ a line PA didn't use, and remove the label from it? I don't think they would. And if they did, I bet PA would be pissed. Not illegal, but is it ethical? Opinions?
I am going to try and get my hands on some HMA and re-line my VX (I'll leave the labels on :) ) and see how the line holds up.
Hook

[diverds 0]

I think that is very interesting. Did you talk to Simon at Icarus?
-Dave
"Gas...Undercarriage...Mixture...Prop...Beer"

[ramon 0]

LMAO
The same people that are pushing Emergency building escape parachutes for wuffos (5 minute BASE course). can't be expected to sew back an "Extreme" label if they replace the end cell/stabilizer?..
Actually I have'nt heard anyone ask if they will re-line the canopy with HMA without altering the trim and replacing the stabilizer ($400). I wonder if they would do it.
ramon

[Hooknswoop 19]

yep, Simon, nice guy.
Hook

[rhino 0]

http://www.politicsandprotest.org/
These people could have definately used those parachutes..
Semper Fi !!!!!
http://www.aahit.com

[PhreeZone 20]

I hate to say anything... but what does this have to do with this discussion Rhino?
And the HMA lines.. Derek, I'm courious on the stance PA is taking. Have you talked to George or Chris? Both seem to be open to discussion on anything that is asked to them. I'm corious what thier responce is to this....
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[rhino 0]

About a minute into it there are people in freefall. Falling to their deaths.. My point is MAYBE escape parachutes aren't THAT bad of an idea..
Semper Fi !!!!!
http://www.aahit.com

[ramon 0]

This has been hashed out already right after 9/11...on DZ.com in fact and other places.
Very interesting arguments pro and con.
I would certainly like a base rig to jump off buildings in touble or otherwise..obviously that is not "The" solution to 9/11 (meaning don't give the public little parachutes in case of terrorists..make the govt or the do something to prevent it).
Here is one of the posts. you can do a search on the rest. By the way jet fuel..a lot of it burns very hot 1000s of degress..enough to weaken the structural steel to failure.
ramon
article posted with permission from author:
Personal Parachutes: The Ethics of Safety
Many of us since the attack on the World Trade Center have been asking how this could have been prevented. And if it could not have been
prevented, how then could we have had more survivors? As daunting as it is to think of, a parachute appears to be a logical and effective means
of escape. After all, Leonardo DaVinci conceived in 1485 the first parachute specifically for the purpose of escaping safely from fires in tall
buildings, and there have been countless other inventors and engineers who have worked on similar ideas since his time.
Why then have we never seen this technology in use? Simply put, it is not necessarily a good idea. The recent events have led the public in a
state of helpless anxiety to seek protection, reassurance, and a means to escape. Thousands of gallons of water have been sold, as well as a
multitude of flashlights, antibiotics, gas masks, and now, personal parachutes. Several companies have taken advantage of this new demand by
marketing parachute systems to office workers, hotel guests, emergency workers, and high rise tenants. One example, ?The Executive Chute?
is being advertised as a ?last resort? when fleeing a structure over 20 stories. While the idea of marketing an emergency escape system itself is
an admirable idea, it is highly irresponsible to sell these parachutes to people without adequate training. Their web site makes it seem like
anyone could just pop it out of their desk drawer at work and saunter out to the nearest ledge and leap to safety.
Another company, Precision Aerodynamics, is marketing the ?Emergency Building Escape Parachute System?. They compare the need for an
EscapeChute for people in high rises as similar to the need of a life preserver when traveling beyond swimming range from shore. People need to
understand that this is not as simple as putting on a life vest. While their web site does say ?training required?, they also promote the
EscapeChute as an easy and obvious choice: ?By following simple instructions, the parachute is automatically deployed for you. All you have to
do to initiate deployment is to jump out the window and away from the building. Simple steering and landing techniques can deliver you to the
surface with confidence?. A video is provided with purchase of the canopy, which may falsely lead people to believe that this is all the training
they need.
B.A.S.E. jumping, for the most part illegal in this country, is the extreme sport of jumping off of stationary objects (Building, Antennae, Span
(bridges), and Earth). Buildings are the most difficult, even for a highly experienced jumper. Morpheus Technologies, which provides one of the
only legal US training courses for B.A.S.E. jumpers, will not even let anyone sign up for their courses unless they are already a licensed and
experienced skydiver with a minimum of 200 jumps. Even then, their training is intensive and rigorous. Kathy Gillespie-Jones at Morpheus says
?As a
manufacturer of B.A.S.E. specific equipment, we feel a responsibility to the general public. There is no quick fix in this situation. A background
in skydiving and a very thorough training course are needed to even begin to pursue what we look at as a SPORT. Even then, we can die!?
B.A.S.E rigs contain only one parachute and there is no back up, as typically altitudes are so low that it would not be possible to deploy a
reserve in time. Packing must be perfect as well as your body position when jumping off the building to provide for the best chance that the
parachute will open properly, on-heading, away from the building and with adequate horizontal separation. There are so many other variables
that need to be
taken into consideration when executing a base jump just under good conditions, such as exit height, wind patterns, piloting the parachute, just
to name a few. An experienced and trained B.A.S.E jumper under good conditions is going to be a highly different model than a panicked
inexperienced office worker, who would in all likelihood be severely injured or killed using a parachute to escape from a building. For a novice
even with training, the lack of conditioning would cause a sensory overload which could prevent
them from being able to react and properly use the equipment.
Fire within a building would take this to an entirely different level of risk. Greg Yarbenet, the inventor of the slider which made modern
parachuting possible, did studies about fifteen years ago, researching the effectiveness of escaping from a burning structure with a parachute.
?Parachuting from a burning building has to take into account the very unusual wind patterns that develop from a very hot rising air mass that is
being replaced by the cooler, lower air that is now funneling upwards to replace the hot air.? He clocked the thermal updrafts at over two
thousand feet per minute at the top of a test burning building. Air near the ground began to swirl upwards in a small vortex that changed the
velocity and direction according to doors, windows, and other building shapes that allow
the air to find the easiest path to the flames. Rising thermals off of the top created sudden downdrafts on the leeward side. Yarbenet found that
any normal size parachute would not function well in such turbulent conditions, and could be pulled back up in the strong updrafts or collapse in
the multiple vortexes along the sides of the building.
Daniel Preston, of the New York based parachute company, Atair Aerodynamics, has mixed feelings on the subject. When asked if he would
work in a high rise without his B.A.S.E. rig Preston answered ?definitely not?. He believes that people should be given all the facts, allowing
them to then seek training and make an educated purchase. However, he is against the selling of escape parachutes to the general public. As a
New York company, Atair finds the ads for these products to be in horrendous taste, dangerously misleading and opportunistic. One company,
B.E.S. even showed a banner of one of the towers being hit and people falling to their death. ?It is specifically the way these products are being
marketed that is irresponsible?, says Preston, ?B.A.S.E. jumping requires training, period. It is not something you can just learn in a few hours
from reading a book or seeing a video. The first step is to learn how to skydive. With a couple hundred jumps under your belt, you could consider
learning B.A.S.E.?
Preston estimated the survivability rate of some of these personal escape parachute systems to be less than 50%. That means that half of the
people jumping would probably die. Other industry leaders estimated the survivability rate to be less. By comparison in skydiving where
everyone is trained and licensed, fatality rates are less than one in one hundred thousand jumps. The majority of those fatalities are caused by
pilot error under a fully functioning parachute. While it would be arguable that one should take any chance in the case of extreme emergency, the
difficulty with that is determining what exactly is a last ditch situation. ?I could envision many situations where people would be likely to jump
when they don't have to?, says Preston. It is estimated that 70% of the people in the World Trade Towers escaped the through the stairwells.
According to Cliff Schmucker, president of the Parachute Industry Association, ?there?s obviously people out here trying to make a quick buck
in a bad situation?.At least one person was looking into congressional relief for the liability issue.?. This would be disastrous, as it would remove
accountability for improperly designed, tested and marketed products.
Dan Poynter, a well known publisher and writer of educational and technical texts on sport parachuting, says ?sure, if you are a base jumper and
on the 28th floor, keep your rig at the office, but for other people it doesn?t make a whole lot of sense?. Poynter believes ?a parachute could work
for some people in some cases, but there are many, many questions to be answered with regard to practicality, cost, training and design.?
Atair manufactures a B.A.S.E. parachute called the Troll and states that the parachutes accumulated one thousand live real world jumps before
it was offered for sale. What is being marketed by many companies as escape systems, is untested technology. The way that it is being
marketed is misleading and sensationalist. ?While I am not against the possibility of escaping from a building with a parachute?, says Preston,
?there are so many things that need to be taken into consideration, and which seem to be overlooked in these current products.? ?you can not
just take an off the shelf para-glider reserve parachute, put it in a container and market it for a wholly different, far more complex and
demanding application?its not safe.?
The systems being marketed at this time have appeared on a variety of television shows and are gaining a lot of publicity. ?From what we have
seen?, says Gillespie-Jones, ?The harness seems to be extremely awkward and the point in which the static line connector is located is very
prone to cause an entanglement with the body. We witnessed complete failure by a company representative to put this system on properly. This
was done on the
Today Show in a controlled environment. There is no way that a person in a panicked state could begin to equip themselves properly in a timely
fashion.?
It is very frustrating to see the direction that this whole thing is going in. Companies seem to be jumping on the bandwagon, offering parachuting
equipment that in any other application would take months if not years of research and development, drop testing and live testing in a variety of
environments before there would even be a consideration to sell to the public. What transpired in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania is
absolutely tragic and it was horrifying to see those people jump from the World Trade Center. Unfortunately, jumping with many of these escape
systems that are being marketed in the aftermath under those same circumstances may not have saved lives, but only extended them by a
second or two.
written by Heather Sinclair
©October 19, 2001

[Hooknswoop 19]

Last time I talked to Chris, he hung up on me, but they both read this forum, so if they have comments, I'm sure they will make their feelings known. I wasn't trying to be unfair, all my posts are open to discussion and I have been wrong before. I did ask for opinions in my post. I think it is in bad taste what they are doing. Icarus paid for the fix on the affected Crossfires, why wouldn't PA pay for the fix on the -M? I carus took a lot of heat for that deal and they stood behind their product, PA said, oops, we made a mistake and you have to pay us to get it fixed. They are really not impressing me these days.
Hook

[rhino 0]

LOL
Semper Fi !!!!!
http://www.aahit.com

[skymedic 0]

Rhino...no offense..but that type of stuff should really stay over in the talk back forum....there are people who read the "other" forums just so they dont have to deal with the clutter of the Talk back....
marc
BSBD

[rhino 0]

No offense taken.. Didn't figure it would do any harm all things considered.
Semper Fi !!!!!
http://www.aahit.com

[AndyMan 7]

I think it's ethical only because they remove the warning labels and model labels.
The warning label: This just makes it perfectly clear that the warantee is void. Any liability that icarus once had is now GONE.
Isn't this the same as me putting a Rochester 4-barrel carb into my Prelude?
As for the model labels, I'm not so sure about this one - Well, if the label says "crossfire", it should be a "crossfire". Somebody might jump one - say "wow I like this", run out buy a crossfire and not like it.
Is this any different the Midas taking the nameplates off your car when you get a cheap paint job?
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Labels? Hell, when Icarus sent me my VX-74 a couple of years ago it didn't have any lablels on it. If they didn't care enough to put them on my brand new canopy, then they ought not bitch when someone else takes them off. Just my opinion.
My webpage HERE

[sangiro 25]

This post just turned this thread into gibberish... I'm moving it to the Talk Back forum. Stick to the topic in these forums please and keep the political bullshit to the Talkback forum where tolerance levels for this is much higher.
Safe swoops
Sangiro

[Hooknswoop 19]

Sangrio- sorry, my fault, I'll be more careful in the future.
Hook

[PhreeZone 20]

Not you.... he was refering to Rhino... I thought you had a good post there Derek...
I wish you would step back from that ledge my friend... ~3EB

[Hooknswoop 19]

I can see your point, but I think your local Mechanic or your modifiying your car is different than taking a Ford to a Chevy dealership and them removing anything that says Ford and putting parts on it that Chevy may or may not approve of. I think this is more of a business ethics question, not my realm of expertese, any MBA's here that could offer some insight? Would PA care if PD offered to re-line PA's canopys w/ a different material and set-up and removed their labels? Who would be liable for an Icarus built canopy re-lined and modified my PA? What if PA built it? PA didn't help w/ the Crossfire issue, even if it was a PA built canopy. To complicate things, PD never produced PA canopys under license. I am in over my head :-)
Hook

[skycat 0]

breath baby, you are confusing yourself again.

[ramon 0]

Shouldn't have gone O.T.
r

[rhino 0]

My bust.. oops.. sorry..
Semper Fi !!!!!
http://www.aahit.com

[ramon 0]

Since George was on Icarus board of directors before he resigned, I imagine they have at least some legal/finaincial responsibility for the canopies..at least older ones (mine says inspected by Precision).
However depending on how they organized their business/partnership/jointventure what ever, it could be that George was just a consultant and he sold his services (manufacturing) to Icarus in which case things get tricky.
I'm thinking an extreme with HMA line mods would be like having a Grand Marquis with Lincoln Continental labels (same car different options).
but I could be wrong.
I wonder if they service any old Icarus canopies or refer you to Icarus (other than converting "Extreme" canopies).
ramon

[rhino 0]

Bottom line is having fun and being safe.. Who cares what the name on the canopy is or if it has a label. If we like our canopy great. If we have a loyalty to the manufacturer great. Again. As long as each and everyone of us is comfortable and as safe as possible under our own canopies that's all that counts.
The canopy manufacturers are trying to make cash the same way other businesses do. Everyone including businesses makes mistakes and pays for it. PA makes great canopies. Icarus makes great canopies. Something went wrong in the mix and some bad mojo is floating around. I just hope that the mistakes were fixed. I hope that no one else gets hurt learning about more mistakes that were made and I hope that in the future mistakes are handled a bit better. Be safe and swoop on!!
Can't we all just get along?? LOL
Rhino
Semper Fi !!!!!
http://www.aahit.com

[sangiro 25]

No harm done. You guys can gladly continue that conversation over here in this forum. That's after all what it's for. Just trying to keep the topical forums relevant. Safe swoops
Sangiro

[grick 0]

Back in October I was looking for a new canopy and debated purchasing a Nitron. I did some research to see what other purposes the lines were used for and I found the best comparison of the material from various racing sail web sites. I then posted my findings (see attached file) for feedback. George quickly responded to me personally, stating my information was incorrect, as you will see below. I then gave him more detailed information and inquired about getting more information about his products and he never replied back, nor referred me to someone else. In short, I decided not to make the purchase.
Greg Rick
D-22597
10/30/2001
Hi Greg,
I think you might be confused about this. The Xaos utilizes a High Modulus
Aramid fiber, nothing like Aramid fibers used by North Sails. I just wanted to mention this so you will know. Information like this is generally very good for all skydivers, but in order for it to be properly useful, it must be accurate. I will try to get some info for you (and others) about our High Modulus Aramid braid.
George Galloway
Precision Aerodynamics, Inc.
10-30-2001
George-
On the contrary, I saw many references to the High Modulus Aramid fiber on Northsail's site. I copied some of the verbiage below. But I hope you don't think I was trying to degrade the HMA lines on your canopy. If anything, the article mentioned vectran as being obsolete and I saw it was a complement to your choice of lines. Although I am interested in the Spectra 2000 they mentioned. I got a chance to see one of your new Xaos canopies Sunday and I was amazed by the size of the lines. That is what prompted me to research what other uses it may have. I thought the article was informational and thought it would be worth sharing to others. I do think more information about the lines could be beneficial on marketing your new line of canopies. On another note, I am in the market for a new canopy and would be interested in your company's suggestion on a Xaos. I have been unable to find any comparisons on the flight characteristics of the different canopies. I have over 500 jumps on a Stiletto 135 at 1.4, 15 jumps on Stiletto 120, and 9 jumps on Crossfire 119. If you could let me know who to contact in your company for recommendations, flight characteristics, and demo information, I would greatly appreciate it.
Gregory J. Rick
D-22597
(Exerpt from Northsail's site)
P = 15.38
E = 5.63
Sail Area = 626sq ft
SPECIFICATIONS:
1 Full Length Top Batten
4 Leech Battens
1 Reef Point
Antal Luff Slides
25kg minimum weight
RECOMMENDED:
ALL-PURPOSE MAINSAIL
3DL High Modulus Aramid
16800 DPI
TF Films
BENEFITS:
Taffeta Film provides improved
UV, Flex and Chafe resistance. The mainsail choice for a single high performance racing and cruising sail.