Paratec Speed vs Optimum

[degeneration 5]

Thanks for that info. I don't have an Icon I1, but was considering one with a Speed! Even if I just had a 135 in it, it is bigger than what I got now, although it is just below the reserve tray volume quoted...

Maybe I'll just keep my current containers and put a new reserve in. One of my rigs (Javelin RS) has a Techno 115, maybe be able to replace that with a Speed 150?

I knew Speeds packed smaller, but hadn't appreciated that they appear to pack quite so much smaller. With their apparent ability to get considerably more fabric above your head, or if you're the type that still wants a tiny reserve you can get an even tinier looking rig on your back, I'm surprised they aren't even more prominent!

I'll certainly be looking for one in the future as and when I upgrade my current reserves.

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

Hi Rem,

Quote

That's not a very high max sus. weight.

It's 194 lbs.

JerryBaumchen

[ParaEd 0]

Your welcome, feel free to ask if you have any more questions.

Like Stefan said before, Paratec isn't for comparative advertising that's why Paratec's canopies aren't so popular. Emotions in advertising might not be the strength of us Germans but there's a reason why we are famous for our strength in exports, it's our quality and the pursuit for perfection ;-)

Blue Skies

Eddie

[pchapman 279]

ParaEd

88 kg!!! this isn't the max weight. it's the max recommended weight. check the TSOs, all canopies are tested and certified for a higher max weight, just that all of the manufacturers recommend less...

The problem is how the manuals are worded.

The PD manual puts it all in a table where you can see, for example, the OP-126 is good to 176 lbs for an 'expert', but the max is '254'. While there are all sorts of warnings, it is clear what the maximum is.

In the Speed 2000 manual (at least the one I have), shows similar weights: The Speed 135 is certified to 115 kg (254 lb) and an MSW of 176 lbs.

But right above the 176 it says in huge letters "NEVER EXCEED THE LIMITS LISTED BELOW" and that this Maximum Suspended Weight is to "ASSURE SAFE FLIGHT AND LANDING CHARACTERISTICS".

Jumpers in North America are familiar with PD equipment, and that they can often be loaded above their recommended level. But for those of us who don't see Speeds used, or read about them on dz.com, all we would have is the manual.

And the manual is very clear on never exceeding 176 lb. So that puts the canopy into a category like some ancient, crappy reserve designed in the early 1980s. Maybe it'll be like an overloaded MicroRaven that'll smack you on landing unless you're really careful.

That's what I'd think only reading the manual; sounds like a crappy canopy.

So their wording could be better.

[ParaEd 0]

The weights listed below are the MAXIMUM weight limits for each category and size. There are many reasons why you might wish to stay below the maximum limit for your canopy.It is perfectly acceptable for your weight to be below these limits, as long as wind and landing conditions permit.

That's the same thing that is written in the optimum loading chart. Or if you read between the lines: You can load your reserve till 254 lbs but we won't guarantee that you survive if the conditions aren't perfect or the canopy is loaded higher than the recommended expert weights for each size of canopy.

The canopy manuals are all the same. People just don't check the right meaning of the technical vocabulary. MSW is not the maximum weight for a canopy. And if you say from the beginning that you can load it until xxx lbs there would be a lot of more deadly accidents. Cause some people forget that there is more out there than the perfect beauty of your rig and the perfect cut away.

Just think about to fall in your AAD, without having your brain control over your body, having the maximum loading weight for your reserve. I don't wanna the one to explain it to your family.

And that's how people jump over here, we read the manuals, getting the facts and now we make a decision: follow the recommendations or blame them!?

[Fandango 1]

degeneration

Without intending to come across facetiously, given your pack volume figures are reliable, could I genuinely expect to be able to fit a speed 2000 150 in an icon i1 given that it fits a smart 99 which has a nearly the same quoted pack volume?

Genuine question.

Icons are not as spread in Germany as in the US or Uk
We have very little experience but I promise to look into it.

Stefan

Gardner : She looks fast !
Truman Sparks : Yeah, it's the stripes.

[Fandango 1]

pchapman

***88 kg!!! this isn't the max weight. it's the max recommended weight. check the TSOs, all canopies are tested and certified for a higher max weight, just that all of the manufacturers recommend less...

The problem is how the manuals are worded.

The PD manual puts it all in a table where you can see, for example, the OP-126 is good to 176 lbs for an 'expert', but the max is '254'. While there are all sorts of warnings, it is clear what the maximum is.

In the Speed 2000 manual (at least the one I have), shows similar weights: The Speed 135 is certified to 115 kg (254 lb) and an MSW of 176 lbs.

But right above the 176 it says in huge letters "NEVER EXCEED THE LIMITS LISTED BELOW" and that this Maximum Suspended Weight is to "ASSURE SAFE FLIGHT AND LANDING CHARACTERISTICS".

Jumpers in North America are familiar with PD equipment, and that they can often be loaded above their recommended level. But for those of us who don't see Speeds used, or read about them on dz.com, all we would have is the manual.

And the manual is very clear on never exceeding 176 lb. So that puts the canopy into a category like some ancient, crappy reserve designed in the early 1980s. Maybe it'll be like an overloaded MicroRaven that'll smack you on landing unless you're really careful.

That's what I'd think only reading the manual; sounds like a crappy canopy.

So their wording could be better.

You mean our wording should leave more room for personal interpretation i.e. room for manufacturer sanctioned self-deception?
I rather not go down that road.
Maybe that's the big difference between the Euro and the US market.
In Europe, self responsibility is what most people live by when using equipment.
In the US, consumers tend to demand the manual to say they are safe even when their gut feeling says "rather not do it"

Stefan

Gardner : She looks fast !
Truman Sparks : Yeah, it's the stripes.

[Fandango 1]

Quagmirian

***The Speed 2000 Reserve uses a highly innovative fabric which is proprietary to Paratec since it's development started in 1997.
(the UK members here might like the fact the Speed fabric is a true Brit :-)

Is it not commercially available then? Can you provide me with the name of the mill perhaps?

I am sorry Quagmirian
As you have learned above, the Speed fabric is a Paratec proprietary development and not available to the public.
Which logically makes the source classified.
Thanks for you your understanding

Gardner : She looks fast !
Truman Sparks : Yeah, it's the stripes.

[pchapman 279]

Fandango

You mean our wording should leave more room for personal interpretation i.e. room for manufacturer sanctioned self-deception?
I rather not go down that road.

So we still are left with this idea in our heads:

- PD's are fine at high loadings (with some skill and if uninjured). After all, plenty of people were jumping PD-126's by the late 1990s, who weighed over the recommended 176 lb limit even without gear.

- The manufacturer of Speed 2000's still absolutely prohibits loading their canopy higher.

Without being in a community where the Speed's are used, there's no way of knowing that that prohibition may not have to be taken that seriously.

I don't think it is about personal responsibility in this case, given the way the statements in the manual are worded. If one wanted personal responsibility, one could have worded it to allow for some.

That's probably enough from me on this matter; I've stated my opinion. In the end, whether a skydiving product sells well in a particular market will depend a lot on having dealers that are reasonably close and other jumpers using the same equipment.

Gruesse aus Kanada!

[skydiverek 63]

Stefan:

Where (at jumper's body) is the stall point of Speed 2000, which is loaded at: 1.0, 1.5, 2.0? We all know that Microravens stalled easily, sometimes at ribcage level, when loaded above 1.3...

[Remster 30]

I guess it's just lost in translation. To a english reader, Max Suspended Weight is the maximum that should be loaded on that canopy, period.

If as you say, it's the Max Recommended weight, then that makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification!

Remster

[skydiverek 63]

This must be the simplest order form I have ever seen ;-):
http://www.paratec.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Orderform-Speed.pdf

Speed 2000 manual is here:
http://www.paratec.de/wp-content/themes/paratec/pdfs/manuals/en/Speed_Benutzerhandbuch__englisch_-_deutsch___Stand_04-2009.pdf

"THIS PARACHUTE IS LIMITED TO BE USED
UP TO A PACK OPENING SPEED OF 150 KTS
AT A MAXIMUM OPERATING WEIGHT OF
115 KG HOWEVER THE MANUFACTURER HAS DETERMINED MAXIMUM SUSPENDED WEIGHTS FOR EACH SIZE TO ASURE SAFE FLIGHT AND LANDING CHARACTERISTICS.

Please choose your canopy size to match your personal experience
level and your requirements. A 120 sqft reserve will easily support
and land a 200 Ibs jumper but is he really able to do so under all circumstances?
Probably not!!
When you have to use your reserve, you are probably not over your
home DZ with plenty of space to land (Remember: Murphy is everywhere).
Our Speed 2000 Reserves pack so small that you can afford to choose
the recommended canopy size for your weight.
There is no need to overload the canopy and there is also no room for
vanity when you ´re down to you last parachute!!"

[ParaEd 0]

[dan43 0]

skydiverek

This must be the simplest order form I have ever seen ;-):
http://www.paratec.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Orderform-Speed.pdf

That is just German efficiency..

[dan43 0]

So with all this comparison between the smart pack volumes and the Speed2000, the Paratec owners manual doesn't even approve the Speed2000 for use in an Icon Container.

[lyosha 50]

skydiverek

This must be the simplest order form I have ever seen ;-):
http://www.paratec.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Orderform-Speed.pdf

Speed 2000 manual is here:
http://www.paratec.de/wp-content/themes/paratec/pdfs/manuals/en/Speed_Benutzerhandbuch__englisch_-_deutsch___Stand_04-2009.pdf

"THIS PARACHUTE IS LIMITED TO BE USED
UP TO A PACK OPENING SPEED OF 150 KTS
AT A MAXIMUM OPERATING WEIGHT OF
115 KG HOWEVER THE MANUFACTURER HAS DETERMINED MAXIMUM SUSPENDED WEIGHTS FOR EACH SIZE TO ASURE SAFE FLIGHT AND LANDING CHARACTERISTICS.

Please choose your canopy size to match your personal experience
level and your requirements. A 120 sqft reserve will easily support
and land a 200 Ibs jumper but is he really able to do so under all circumstances?
Probably not!!
When you have to use your reserve, you are probably not over your
home DZ with plenty of space to land (Remember: Murphy is everywhere).
Our Speed 2000 Reserves pack so small that you can afford to choose
the recommended canopy size for your weight.
There is no need to overload the canopy and there is also no room for
vanity when you ´re down to you last parachute!!"

How much does a speed reserve cost?

[mjosparky 4]

ParaEd

88 kg!!! this isn't the max weight. it's the max recommended weight. check the TSOs, all canopies are tested and certified for a higher max weight, just that all of the manufacturers recommend less... that canopies are still perfect in their properties, openings, flight, landings etc.

If you want to swoop your reserve, go for it ;-) other people just want to save their lifes with it.

PS: Max operating weight is 115 kg, although the Speed 2000 is tested with much more weight. But like I said before, follow the recommendations...all the other stuff is playing on your own risk :-) and there isn't always the perfect malfunction, just think of the case that you're knocked out...do you really wanna have a wingload of 1.5 and higher on your reserve?

---

SAE AS8015 Revision B

1.2 Maximum Operating Limits, General:

Parachute assemblies, or components, may be certificated for any operating weight limit equal to or greater than 220 lb (100 kg), and for any pack
opening airspeed equal to or greater than 150 KEAS (277.8 km/h).

2.1.9 MAXIMUM OPERATING WEIGHT: The maximum operating weight is the total weight of all individuals or dummies and their equipment.

2.1.10 MAXIMUM OPERATING SPEED: The maximum operating speed equals the maximum pack open speed in KEAS.

4.3.4 (Continued):

a. Test weight = Maximum operating weight limit x 1.2
b. Test speed = Maximim operating speed limit x 1.2

However, test weight must be not less than 264 lb (119.7 kg) and the test speed must be not less than 180 KEAS (333.4 km/h) for reserve and
emergency parachute assemblies; for dual harness parachute assemblies for test weight must not be less than 480 lb (217.7 kg) and the test speed
must not be less than 210 KEAS (388.9 km/h).

---

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[ParaEd 0]

For example: http://my-skyworld.de/shop/Reservefallschirme/SPEED.html

Round about 1200€ in Germany. But this, like always, depends from the dealer you're buying from.

[degeneration 5]

dan43

So with all this comparison between the smart pack volumes and the Speed2000, the Paratec owners manual doesn't even approve the Speed2000 for use in an Icon Container.

Oops! Hadn't noticed that! Unfortunately i can't afford one just now anyway! Guess it wont be going in my icon as and when I can afford it!

Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic).

[Pantanal 0]

897,00 euros without VAT. www.basik.fr. Talk with Jerome Bunker.

prego

[pchapman 279]

degeneration

***the Paratec owners manual doesn't even approve the Speed2000 for use in an Icon Container.

Oops! Hadn't noticed that!

Bizarre, I've never seen a list like that before in a manual. Current version is from 2009, so it isn't like it was written before Icons existed.

But, as a plus for the manual, at least it says you can check with them if your rig isn't listed...

[Fandango 1]

dan43

So with all this comparison between the smart pack volumes and the Speed2000, the Paratec owners manual doesn't even approve the Speed2000 for use in an Icon Container.

Dan
It is allowed in an Icon container, the list you are referring to needs updating. It was a requirement set up by JAA ( the predecessor of EASA here in Europe.
Besides, it's TSOed and any Rigger may or may not determine compatibility.

Stefan

Gardner : She looks fast !
Truman Sparks : Yeah, it's the stripes.

[Fandango 1]

pchapman

***
You mean our wording should leave more room for personal interpretation i.e. room for manufacturer sanctioned self-deception?
I rather not go down that road.

So we still are left with this idea in our heads:

- PD's are fine at high loadings (with some skill and if uninjured). After all, plenty of people were jumping PD-126's by the late 1990s, who weighed over the recommended 176 lb limit even without gear.

- The manufacturer of Speed 2000's still absolutely prohibits loading their canopy higher.

Without being in a community where the Speed's are used, there's no way of knowing that that prohibition may not have to be taken that seriously.

I don't think it is about personal responsibility in this case, given the way the statements in the manual are worded. If one wanted personal responsibility, one could have worded it to allow for some.

That's probably enough from me on this matter; I've stated my opinion. In the end, whether a skydiving product sells well in a particular market will depend a lot on having dealers that are reasonably close and other jumpers using the same equipment.

Gruesse aus Kanada!

What good is a list wich states experience levels, but where there's no definition standard for these. What's behind the expert level ? Who determined the standard? There's no institution at purchase to control whether the buyer complies or not. So, in any case the buyer rates himself and will find himself (probably unknowingly) outside the TSO as he definitely exceeds the max rate of descent of 21 ft/sec in braked configuration being in the expert mode. There is a reason for having a model family and various sizes to match weights which then allow for a safe operation.
But maybe it's different when you get closer to the arctic circle. I shall ask my old friend Rigger Rob in Vancouver.

Gruesse aus Deutschland

Gardner : She looks fast !
Truman Sparks : Yeah, it's the stripes.

[Fandango 1]

skydiverek

Stefan:

Where (at jumper's body) is the stall point of Speed 2000, which is loaded at: 1.0, 1.5, 2.0? We all know that Microravens stalled easily, sometimes at ribcage level, when loaded above 1.3...

I cannot really tell you as the human body is to variable.
Besides when you are in that situation you are in quite of a loosely fitting harness with your risers way up so there is not really a way to give advises that can be followed.
What I can tell you is that all our reserves are very forgiving
and have a predictable and pre-estimatable stall point

Stefan

Gardner : She looks fast !
Truman Sparks : Yeah, it's the stripes.

[lyosha 50]

Pantanal

897,00 euros without VAT. www.basik.fr. Talk with Jerome Bunker.

Is there any way I can avoid paying the VAT, being in America and all... ?