Would you have this TM or Rigger at your DZ?

[SpecialKaye 0]

I'm curious from the DZO/DZM's out there (and for that matter, other TM's) if they would work with these individuals.

Scenario #1: DZO was advised via e-mail by the boyfriend of a student because of very "off the cuff" sexual remark and stated that he was not allowed to jump at one of her other DZ's any longer and he's "on probation" regarding this incident. The DZM heard the remark and didn't chastise the TM and kept it from the DZO until the e-mail came in.

Scenario #2: It's a month later, he's been pulling low on tandems constantly and finally pulls so low that the Cypres fires. Here's the interesting part, the student looks up and recognizes that they have two canopies out. When he lands, the gear is inspected by me (a rigger), it's determined that the Cypres has, in fact, fired. He brags to the student that he just saved the guy's life...the poor student doesn't have a clue of how close he came to dying. The DZM keeps this information from the DZO and only advises of a reserve ride. The TM refuses to fill out an incident report because "there was no incident to the student, therefore, no incident", until Strong advises that they are aware of a reserve ride and REQUIRED an incident report be forwarded. There's a BS story given to Strong, and still never admitting to the Cypres firing. The DZM (rigger who repacked the reserve) never stated on the packing data card that the cypres fired or that the reserve was repacked after use. For that matter, the rig was "in service" for almost 2 weeks after out of date.

Are these the caliber of individuals that you want to be working with? The DZO was advised of much more, rigging infraction issues, however, wishes to have this caliber of individuals at her DZ.

I'm really curious of whether this is running rampant in the sport.

Kaye

[airtwardo 7]

I'm really curious of whether this is running rampant in the sport.

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Wow..I sure HOPE not!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[nbblood 0]

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I'm really curious of whether this is running rampant in the sport.

Really? Is that the point of your post? I don't think so. I think you know the answers to the questions you asked. I think your post is more designed to air dirty laundry to the public more than anything else. You know, let them read about it and react.

Do these kind of things happen? Unfortunately. Is it the norm? I don't think so.

I really think you're just trying to get the DZO to do something by airing dirty laundry. Well, its out there now. It's nearly as unfortunate as the incidents themselves that some people deal with issues this way.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[billvon 2,990]

A few notes from a moderator perspective.

1) Do NOT use this forum to get back at someone you're mad at. Future posts that are nothing but a way to get back at someone will be deleted.

2) Do not mis-title your post to get more attention. If you wish to post about "bad stuff happening at a DZ" please use a thread title that accurately portrays your subject matter, so that readers understand what they will be reading.

3) If you truly believe that this is a safety issue, you are protecting them by not revealing who it is, and are part of the problem. If you have a problem that you feel needs to be aired, then post the facts as you know them (not what you think someone's boyfriend said in email, but what you yourself have seen.) This sort of anonymous sniping helps no one.

[tombuch 0]

Sounds serious. Instead of posting here about a significant problem at an anonymous drop zone, I'd strongly suggest you contact the appropriate authorities directly as follows:

Strong Enterprises at 800-344-6319

USPA Director of Safety and Training Jim Crouch at 540-604-9740

USPA Regional Director for the Southeastern US Mike Gruwell (if it happened at your home DZ in Florida) at 770-749-9184

FAA Regional FSDO/GADO if you are sure of the reserve violation and wish to pursue it through FAA channels.

I see far too many very serious problems like the one you are posting, but rarely are they officially reported to anybody who can actually do something about them. It's pretty disingenuous to post them here when you are not willing to stand up and express them with the name of the DZ for attribution.

If you must keep your name confidential, Strong Enterprises and USPA will certainly listen with interest, and will probably follow-up informally, but it's difficult for any official organization to take action on an anonymous say-so simply posted in a public forum.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Hooknswoop 19]

You have 2 choices:

1) Shut up about this forever (and any future, similar events) and keep skydiving, or;

2) Go to the authorities and anyone else who will listen and tell them everything and quit skydiving.

Realize that if you choose option 2, nothing will change except you don't jump anymore. No one will actually do anything to support you and most will attack you or at the very least, treat you like a leper. I know you are picturing the FAA stepping in and revoking pilot privledges, rigger certificates, tandem ratings, Strong stepping as well as USPA and things getting taken care of, but the reality is that is not going to happen. You can either live with it as is and keep jumping, or you can't and quit jumping. Your choice. Make it quick, it might already be too late.

Derek

[Squeak 17]

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You have 2 choices:

1) Shut up about this forever (and any future, similar events) and keep skydiving, or;

2) Go to the authorities and anyone else who will listen and tell them everything and quit skydiving.

Realize that if you choose option 2, nothing will change except you don't jump anymore. No one will actually do anything to support you and most will attack you or at the very least, treat you like a leper. I know you are picturing the FAA stepping in and revoking pilot privledges, rigger certificates, tandem ratings, Strong stepping as well as USPA and things getting taken care of, but the reality is that is not going to happen. You can either live with it as is and keep jumping, or you can't and quit jumping. Your choice. Make it quick, it might already be too late.

Derek

Derek I've heard a lot of good things about you, and have developed a level of respect for you, but I have to disagree completey with your views on this.
I believe if more people stand up and do NOT accept shoddy practices there will be less of them too accept.
If i were in the OP position and felt that it was dangerous, I would have no issue with standing up and saying so and reporting it to the relevant authorities.


If this kind of behaviour is allowed to continue where do we draw the line.??

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Miami 0]

Reality is seldom happy news. Keep fighting the good fight...just don't expect much support, as most want to do what is easy rather than what is right.

Miami

[SpecialKaye 0]

Derek,

We all have choices! I would hope that my choices will save a life or two.

Good luck breathing with your head in the sand.

Kaye

[nbblood 0]

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If i were in the OP position and felt that it was dangerous, I would have no issue with standing up and saying so and reporting it to the relevant authorities.

Yes, but that's not what was done here. What we have is a nameless DZ, rigger and TM and nobody has done anything about it. There are ways to go about getting some resolution, but this isn't it.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I believe if more people stand up and do NOT accept shoddy practices there will be less of them too accept.
If i were in the OP position and felt that it was dangerous, I would have no issue with standing up and saying so and reporting it to the relevant authorities.


If this kind of behaviour is allowed to continue where do we draw the line.??

I absolutely agree with you.That does not change the reality of the situation. More people won't care, they just want to jump out of airplanes and figure a TI pulling low doesn't hurt them, and they "don't want to get involved in the politics", so they are not going to stand up and rally behind this guy's cause, right or wrong.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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We all have choices! I would hope that my choices will save a life or two.

OK, make your choice. Stand up, put a name in your profile and write a tell-all post, go to the authorities, etc or let it go. What is it going to be?

So far you haven't said that you have done anything or even made a choice about what you are going to do.

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Good luck breathing with your head in the sand.

I guess you really don't know anything about me if you think my head is in the sand. I have been in your shoes, made my choice and haven't jumped for over 3 yeas now. You have yet to make your choice.

Derek

[fcajump 164]

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I'm curious from the DZO/DZM's out there (and for that matter, other TM's) if they would work with these individuals.

Scenario #1: DZO was advised via e-mail by the boyfriend of a student because of very "off the cuff" sexual remark and stated that he was not allowed to jump at one of her other DZ's any longer and he's "on probation" regarding this incident. The DZM heard the remark and didn't chastise the TM and kept it from the DZO until the e-mail came in.

Scenario #2: It's a month later, he's been pulling low on tandems constantly and finally pulls so low that the Cypres fires. Here's the interesting part, the student looks up and recognizes that they have two canopies out. When he lands, the gear is inspected by me (a rigger), it's determined that the Cypres has, in fact, fired. He brags to the student that he just saved the guy's life...the poor student doesn't have a clue of how close he came to dying. The DZM keeps this information from the DZO and only advises of a reserve ride. The TM refuses to fill out an incident report because "there was no incident to the student, therefore, no incident", until Strong advises that they are aware of a reserve ride and REQUIRED an incident report be forwarded. There's a BS story given to Strong, and still never admitting to the Cypres firing. The DZM (rigger who repacked the reserve) never stated on the packing data card that the cypres fired or that the reserve was repacked after use. For that matter, the rig was "in service" for almost 2 weeks after out of date.

Are these the caliber of individuals that you want to be working with? The DZO was advised of much more, rigging infraction issues, however, wishes to have this caliber of individuals at her DZ.

I'm really curious of whether this is running rampant in the sport.

Kaye

Not being PC (#1 from above), I hate to say it but this does not bother me too much at a DZ. However it ought to bother the DZO/DZO's if it is offensive to $tudent$.

Being unsafe needs to be corrected.
Being unsafe with students and/or other's gear, unexcusable. I would suggest it be reported. However, recognize that support for whistle-blowers varies greatly. If it is that bad, you have to take a stand even if it hurts.

Good Luck with your choices... just make sure that they are ones that YOU can live with, even in front of the mirror.

Jim
Strong TI
Sr. Rigger

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Hooknswoop 19]

When I tried to make some issues at a DZ public, I though other skydivers would be aghast at the revelations. I thought they would stand up and demand changes. I was naive. I received a PM which made me understand why I couldn't change anything:

"I just want them to get out of town with as little trash as possible and ALL THIS TO BE OVER.

Nothing personal and of course, I value your opinion and I listen to what you have to say about skydiving , and I respect it.

Xxxxx's a shewd businessman, I know that. I guess since I feel like xxxxx is my Home DZ now (since xxxxx's closed) it's hard to hear the negative...or at least know it's out there for 5,000 people to read. Im afraid some people might consider it more "bitterness" on your part though, that's all. You didn't say anything that was not true....maybe reality check is a hard lesson."

Even though they realized everything was true, they hated me anyway for saying it. They felt as though I was attacking them, since it was 'their' DZ.

My saying that a skydiver that sees one or more issues at a DZ that needs to be changed has 2 choices;

"1) Shut up about this forever (and any future, similar events) and keep skydiving, or;

2) Go to the authorities and anyone else who will listen and tell them everything and quit skydiving."

is not an attack, it is reality. Skydivers know what goes on at a DZ. Don't think that standing up and saying, "this isn't right" is going to all of a sudden get these jumpers to stand up along side you and demand change. They won't. They already know and they aren't saying or doing anything. They are not going to see you as their savior, the good guy that cares about them, they are going to see you as the prick that is pissing in the community bowl of soup.

A DZO could do absolutely anything they wanted, regardless of how wrong it is and skydivers will say, "You signed the waiver", "Skydivers don't rat on skydivers", "If you don't like it, don't jump", etc.

Drug users don't call the police if their dealer parks in a handicapped zone.

Derek

[chachi 0]

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Sounds serious. Instead of posting here about a significant problem at an anonymous drop zone, I'd strongly suggest you contact the appropriate authorities directly as follows:

Strong Enterprises at 800-344-6319

USPA Director of Safety and Training Jim Crouch at 540-604-9740

USPA Regional Director for the Southeastern US Mike Gruwell (if it happened at your home DZ in Florida) at 770-749-9184

FAA Regional FSDO/GADO if you are sure of the reserve violation and wish to pursue it through FAA channels.

I see far too many very serious problems like the one you are posting, but rarely are they officially reported to anybody who can actually do something about them. It's pretty disingenuous to post them here when you are not willing to stand up and express them with the name of the DZ for attribution.

If you must keep your name confidential, Strong Enterprises and USPA will certainly listen with interest, and will probably follow-up informally, but it's difficult for any official organization to take action on an anonymous say-so simply posted in a public forum.

you should go to everyone except the FAA but i would suggest a serious sit down with the DZO first. try working correctly on the inside before going external.

[doogie 0]

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I'm really curious of whether this is running rampant in the sport.

I guess rampant enough. The last dropzone I was at is run by kids that were letting stuff like this go on and even encouraging it. Despite best efforts from some of the staff to prevent it (including me, obvi ;-), I finally decided to just give up, take a hiatus from the sport and get away from it for a while. That was about three years ago. They finally got called on the carpet publicly for some of their games. See "good idea bad idea" in the instructors forum.

Mmmmm... I love the smell of sour grapes in the morning! ;-)

[billvon 2,990]

>If this kind of behaviour is allowed to continue where do we draw the line.??

Before anyone gets too bent out of shape I would encourage people to find out if this sort of behavior is really occurring. We've had several cases of people using these forums to get revenge for a perceived wrong. (Not saying that's what happened here, but it is always better to get both sides of any given story, especially on a forum as anonymous as this one.)