Safire-2 RIPPED

[CaptnCrunch 0]

Hey guys, i am rather new to the Sport and got a complete
rig in December.
It had a Safire-2 260 that was in the closet for a while, i will give a run down and ask for opinions.

First Owner bought it brandNew from Dropzone.com
with 0 Jumps and did a couple of Jumps on it , he was
a big guy, probebly arround a 300 Pounds Exit and on Jump
25 the bottom of theCanopy ripped from the front to about 4 Feet in.

The Canopy was then repaired by Icarus - and they also gave the guy a "experimental" Slider (big ass slider) to
slow down things a little.

The Hard opening and Rip insured the guy, he didnt jump it after the repair. (that was 2009)

I bought the Gear from him and had Issues with VERY
snively openings some of them took 1200 feet , which concerned me , but the more concern i had was that during these long openings i got into Linetwists several times -

we determined that the "experimental" Slider was maybe good for him , but for me with 230 Pounds exit wait may have slowed down the process to much, the Slider that
originally belonged to that Parachute was installed and i finally got more positive , still nice an soft openings.

From time to time i would get a "yank" but nothing that was
to much of a concern - i herad the typicall "body position"
remarks - overall i put about 30 Jumps on it and after the slider change it seemed acceptable to me.

on Sunday i had a rough opening and the Canopy ripped EXACTLY on the paralell other side of the Middle Cell , basically the SAME TEAR - on me.

I dont want to start a Discussion "have you chopped it, would you have chopped it"

My Question is, has anyone heard of a behavoir of Safire-2 260sqf that may help my argument with Icarus ?

it is a SEP2004, before you all start to dispute the Jumps , the Rigger knows the seller personally, if you would see the Canopy -. it is slick and new - no doubt about the Numbers of Jumps this had when purchased, it had until Sunday 56 Jumps.

The RIP was only on the bottom layer, the canopy flew / flared and steered good.
That rip went until it hit first reenforcement.

Anyone heard something like this before , how would you deal with Icarus and more important.

Would you accept a REPAIR and JUMP it again or just get something new.
My trust in the Canopy is gone, on that jump i specifically slowed DOWN from my Track, waited, ARCHED , REACHED and PULLED - it am 99.9 % Sure it was not body position.

Packing is done always by the same packer and even when i used a friend who is a rigger as packer, i had some of these very uneven not on heading openings.

thanks for your opinions - i know that noone may have the perfect answers, i am just trying to learn from it and make my decision what to do

[CaptnCrunch 0]

Pictures

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

My trust in the Canopy is gone

Because you are wise enough to have a low WL, your canopy still flies well even with such a tear. That is good news. I landed something similar in the lower middle cell, no problem even at a 1.15 WL. Instead of losing trust in the canopy, perhaps try to see it as an affirmation of how much tolerance there is in your canopy. I've never noticed any threads at all talking about Safires getting tears, so it should probably just get an extra thorough inspection along with repair. Maybe the mfg can learn something from it. Maybe they could be convinced to give a break on the price of repair - worth trying.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[CaptnCrunch 0]

sundevil, thanks thats another angle but i am
not willing to jump this again even after a repair.
None of the opening i had was "perfect" - i think
something is wrong - i let someone else play with it,-)
I will not downsize i think, but want a new one ,)

[ufk22 33]

Quote

Anyone heard something like this before , how would you deal with Icarus

The best comparison I can offer is that you bought a car that had been in a major accident and repaired, and now you want to complaint to the manufacturer about the cars drive-ability. This canopy was involved in an opening hard enough to take someone out of the sport. You knew that when you bought it. Don't expect the manufacturer to stand behind a 10 year old damaged canopy.
Time for something else.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[CaptnCrunch 0]

ufk22

***
Time for something else.

completely agree and in touch with ICARUS , i will not
spend money on a repair unless someone here wants
to buy it ,-))
i am going for a different one i guess, if they offer me
a discount, i would stay with Icarus - otherwiese i
may have to go PD.

[SoCalJumper 0]

A good parachute is a good parachute and for me that means a brand new parachute.

I'd like a couple of those used gear advocates that comment used is perfect because I saved 482.15 wade in and now talk about recourse, was it a a good deal, a good deal and a bad seller, was it shit gear, was it shit gear and sold on DZ.com with jumps, etc, etc. seems they post on everything else.... yet are strangely quiet in this thread.

For me it's life saving equipment. I buy new and jump it, it's mine. I feel comfortable in my decision.

Get yourself a new main. If you gave me $10,000 I would not jump it, saving any dollar amount is not worth it to me when it comes to life saving equipment

If Icarus helps you out great, they do not have too, lets give it a bit of time and see, but it sounds like you bought junk.

[gowlerk 2,190]

Quote

Get yourself a new main. If you gave me $10,000 I would not jump it, saving any dollar amount is not worth it to me when it comes to life saving equipment

I don't think of a main canopy as life saving equipment. I think of it as a toy.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

A good parachute is a good parachute and for me that means a brand new parachute.

I'd like a couple of those used gear advocates that comment used is perfect because I saved 482.15 wade in and now talk about recourse, was it a a good deal, a good deal and a bad seller, was it shit gear, was it shit gear and sold on DZ.com with jumps, etc, etc. seems they post on everything else.... yet are strangely quiet in this thread.

Try decaf

FWIW ~ NEW gear can have it's problems too, I had a canopy with THREE jumps on it split nose to tail...none were hard openings.

Ran into a guy at another DZ that had 20 on his when the same thing happened...they were 3 apart in serial numbers.

I've also bought a used canopy with 400 jumps on it...I put another 500 on it, gave it to a buddy who has jumped it for 3 years now...no problems.

So just keep in mind regarding your 'good parachute is a good parachute' ~ ~ That reserve you probably have is 'brand new' as in 0 jumps...if MY 'new canopy' can blow up - so can YOURS

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[CaptnCrunch 0]

SoCalJumper

If Icarus helps you out great, they do not have too, lets give it a bit of time and see, but it sounds like you bought junk.

I know the previous owner, the Numbers are absolutley
okay and it may be a bad Main - i mean 50 Jumps
and TWO Tears in different Areas that look exactly the SAME ? i dont believe thats a coincident ......

[andym148 2]

Im surprised a Safire 2 opened hard enough to injure someone, I've never experienced a hard opening on any Safire 2 or Crossfire 2 that I've owned.. and I've deployed in some pretty shit positions!
I would send it back to Icarus for inspection and repair, send all the info you have and id expect them to do thorough testing on it as well as seeing if there was a faulty batch of canopies made? I understand you might be nervous in jumping it again, but don't be put off in buying an Icarus/NZAerosports canopies in the future. I hope you manage to get to the bottom of it soon.

At long last the light at the end of the tunell isnt an on coming train!!!

[Scrumpot 1]

So let's see here, if I can synopsize...

You buy a 2004 (10yrs old) used canopy, via a private sale - and now want Icarus to give you a new canopy? Do I follow that correctly?

That sure seems like it is the only resolution somehow, that you are alluding here through your posts, that you will accept/be acceptable to you, or that you would consider somehow I guess to be fair. Is that right? Is that what you are saying?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[airtwardo 7]

Was that Eric's canopy?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Southern_Man 0]

airtwardo

Try decaf

FWIW ~ NEW gear can have it's problems too, I had a canopy with THREE jumps on it split nose to tail...none were hard openings.

Ran into a guy at another DZ that had 20 on his when the same thing happened...they were 3 apart in serial numbers.

Sounds like a bad batch of fabric

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[CaptnCrunch 0]

Scrumpot

So let's see here, if I can synopsize...

You buy a 2004 (10yrs old) used canopy, via a private sale - and now want Icarus to give you a new canopy? Do I follow that correctly?

yes, with less then 26 Jumps when i bought it as it
blew at Jumpo 25 with the previous Owner and
was repaired by Icarus in 2009 and since then in
the closet

Scrumpot

That sure seems like it is the only resolution somehow, that you are alluding here through your posts, that you will accept/be acceptable to you, or that you would consider somehow I guess to be fair. Is that right? Is that what you are saying?

I dont think anyone would like to Jump this after a SECOND
tear like this - and i could get this repaired but still
would have these openings that are concerning and were
only managable after they oout an "experimental" slider in.

I think a fair offer would be to Discount a new one, and
"trash" this one , i am sure noone would buy this if i were
to put it on the Classfields with the honest rundown of
what happend.

The purpose of my Post was to figure out if someone
has heard of Issues with this Canopy, 260s are not
that widely used i assume - i heard nothing but good things
about the Safire-2 - but normally in smaller sizes.

[CaptnCrunch 0]

airtwardo

Was that Eric's canopy?

YES, thats his

[airtwardo 7]

Scrumpot

So let's see here, if I can synopsize...

You buy a 2004 (10yrs old) used canopy, via a private sale - and now want Icarus to give you a new canopy? Do I follow that correctly?

That sure seems like it is the only resolution somehow, that you are alluding here through your posts, that you will accept/be acceptable to you, or that you would consider somehow I guess to be fair. Is that right? Is that what you are saying?

Though on the surface that may seem like a wildly unreasonable request...and yeah, maybe full replacement is - however, I'm familiar with the canopy and the 'problems' it's had since jump #1.

It never HAS opened like a 'normal' Safire...or at least like the one's I've jumped.

The original owner IS built like a fireplug, but he's not 300 lbs out the door...the canopy was loaded pretty close to 1:1 when he had it.

I helped him pack it using all the slow opening techniques I know but it had a marginal effect at best.

The openings were at times so brutal, the 1st owner paid a rigger to pack it with him there - getting walked through the process.

The owner knew how to pack, but was figuring he must be doing something wrong...I've watched him - he wasn't.

The canopy exploded on opening jump #25 or 26 on it & tore the FIRST time... it broke his neck and knocked him out of the sport for good...had to have his neck fused back together.

The trim has been checked and it supposed to be good...there is some kind of manufactured in anomaly with 'that' canopy - were it MY company, I'd pull 'that one' out of service and give CaptCrunch a heck of a discount on the 'trade in'

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[CaptnCrunch 0]

Thanks airtwardo,

i can tell you that wheni had all these Issues, i heard the
same things Eric must have heard:
"Packing", "Body Position","dont roll the nose" ...

I am actually happy i just have a "whiplash" and a "bruised spine" - it could have been worst then that.

I jumped today the Loaner i got , i opened it with
concern how THIS will work .. and after that i said:
" WOW, this is what a SOFT Opening feels like"

I realized today that NONE of the openings i got from
that Safire-2 was "good" - as a rather new jumper i had
just no way to compare ..

I am in touch with the Service Center now and
the ICARUS REP is CCd in - so i hope they will do
the right thing, whatever that means !

[airtwardo 7]

CaptnCrunch

Thanks airtwardo,

i can tell you that wheni had all these Issues, i heard the
same things Eric must have heard:
"Packing", "Body Position","dont roll the nose" ...

I am actually happy i just have a "whiplash" and a "bruised spine" - it could have been worst then that.

I jumped today the Loaner i got , i opened it with
concern how THIS will work .. and after that i said:
" WOW, this is what a SOFT Opening feels like"

I realized today that NONE of the openings i got from
that Safire-2 was "good" - as a rather new jumper i had
just no way to compare ..

I am in touch with the Service Center now and
the ICARUS REP is CCd in - so i hope they will do
the right thing, whatever that means !

I hope they do ya right.

They kinda HAVE TO know something's up with that particular canopy, needing two major repairs...in 50 freakin' jumps?.

Offering you an 'experimental' slider to 'fix' an opening problem not seen on other similar canopies is rather telling.

That thing needs to be retired before it kills somebody.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Maksimsf 0]

Are you sure it is Safire-2? I was pretty sure maximum size is 229 sq.f?

[pchapman 279]

Maksimsf

Are you sure it is Safire-2? I was pretty sure maximum size is 229 sq.f?

If it is a 260, and a 229 is the maximum size for a non-custom order (as I see on the Icarus & NZAS sites)... then that does suggest there might be a scaling issue with that canopy. Scaling a canopy isn't just a matter of typing in a new size in the CAD/CAM software...

[Quagmirian 40]

That's the problem right there then. They've essentially sold a prototype canopy. I might do that. Anybody want my brown thing? Design's never been tested before and it'll cost you $1500, thanks.

[CaptnCrunch 0]

***Are you sure it is Safire-2? I was pretty sure maximum size is 229 sq.f?[/quote

Definetely a 260 !!

[idodsick 0]

i know of at least 2 safire2s that blew up at SDC. rental gear. one was so loud i swore it was a gunshot.

the diamond can not be polished without friction, nor a man perfected without trials.

[CaptnCrunch 0]

idodsick

i know of at least 2 safire2s that blew up at SDC. rental gear. one was so loud i swore it was a gunshot.

Are you able to get specifics, maybe even serials about those - were they 260s ?