Suggestion for swooping issue

[Chiquita 14]

I have a suggestion that may help with the recent rash of collisions and 270 swoops. So here is my 2 cents:

I think that if someone is going to do a swoop (of any kind) that they should have to declare that they are intending on doing one, what degree and where they are planning on doing it. That way everyone on the load knows to expect it,where to expect it, and who to watch for. If they do more of a swoop or in a different area then they could be grounded.

Even if separate landing areas are used it would not hurt to let everyone else know just to be safe.

But the main there is that the dz needs to enforce the rules with no exceptions.

"Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"

[DAVE619 0]

SEPARATE THE HIGH PERFORMANCE LANDING AREA FROM THE MAIN LANDING AREA, NO TURNS OVER 90 DEGREES ALOUD IN THE MAIN LANDING AREA. PROBLEM SOLVED. JUST ABOUT EVERY DROPZONE I HAVE BEEN TO HAS SOME SORT OF RULE LIKE THIS ESTABLISHED. WITH THAT SAID, JUST CAUSE YOU FLY A BEACH TOWEL SIZED CANOPY DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO DO A 270 TO LAND. IF ITS CROUDED AND UNSAFE THEN DONT DO IT.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Please release the pressure and the CAPS LOCK! Thanks.

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

But now instead of making it the responsibility of one jumper to swoop in a designated area you have made it the responsibility of everyone on the load to watch for that one guy. What happens if there are multiply swoopers? You have to memorize all of there canopies so you know what to look for? What happens if you are new at the DZ? Now after signing your wavier and taking a look at the aerial map you also have to memorize all the different canopies people might be swooping with. Separate the landing area.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[ianmdrennan 2]

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But now instead of making it the responsibility of one jumper to swoop in a designated area you have made it the responsibility of everyone on the load to watch for that one guy.

It's your responsibility to watch EVERYONE on the load under canopy. Just like it's theirs to watch you.

Seperate landing area or not. Not heeding that will produce the same amount of canopy collisions.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

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But now instead of making it the responsibility of one jumper to swoop in a designated area you have made it the responsibility of everyone on the load to watch for that one guy.

It's your responsibility to watch EVERYONE on the load under canopy. Just like it's theirs to watch you.

Seperate landing area or not. Not heeding that will produce the same amount of canopy collisions.

Blues,
Ian

Of course it's your responsibility to watch everyone but to now have to watch everyone and pick out the swoops from the crowd seems to be a bit much.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[The111 1]

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Of course it's your responsibility to watch everyone but to now have to watch everyone and pick out the swoops from the crowd seems to be a bit much.

I agree. Keeping your head on a swivel is one thing; however it is a bit ridiculous to memorize "watch out for John on the green canopy doing a 180, Kevin on the blue doing a 270, Mike on the red doing a 360, and Jeff on the orange doing a 540." I would almost say the effort of looking for those specific canopies would take your overall situtational awareness down a bit.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[ianmdrennan 2]

To be clear I wasn't saying memorizing people was a good solution, just that people seem to be forgetting the basics of "Remember, everyone is trying to kill you up there. Treat them as such".

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

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Of course it's your responsibility to watch everyone but to now have to watch everyone and pick out the swoops from the crowd seems to be a bit much.

I agree. Keeping your head on a swivel is one thing; however it is a bit ridiculous to memorize "watch out for John on the green canopy doing a 180, Kevin on the blue doing a 270, Mike on the red doing a 360, and Jeff on the orange doing a 540." I would almost say the effort of looking for those specific canopies would take your overall situtational awareness down a bit.

That's exactly what I am saying! For my own protection I general know all the swoopers at my DZ and watch for them if they are on my load. I also stay away from the swooping lane (I pretend there is a vertical column that extents 2000 ft hight over it) that was setup last year considering that most of the swoopers use that. But there are a few guys who don't and they are the people I really watch for. But I can only do this because I jump with these people all the time. I couldn't imagine memorizing canopies if I travelled to another place.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[Chiquita 14]

I wasn't saying memorize every person that is going to swoop, but I think it would be nice to know how many people are swooping and where they intend to land. Especially for the people that are new to the dz, because they have no idea who the swoopers and who is not.

It was a suggestion and you can take, leave it or improve it, I could care less.

"Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"

[piisfish 140]

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It's your responsibility to watch EVERYONE on the load under canopy. Just like it's theirs to watch you.

Seperate landing area or not. Not heeding that will produce the same amount of canopy collisions.

it's everybody's responsability to watch everyone in the air. It's also the responsability to "bigger canopy" jumpers to try and not spiral down and create situations where "naturally faster descending canopies" are suddenly above them.

At my DZ it unfortunately happens more often than "small canopies" zooming through the others.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 2,990]

>It's your responsibility to watch EVERYONE on the load under canopy.

You can't. You physically cannot see canopies above you preparing to do 270's - you have a canopy in the way. You can sashay violently to move the canopy out of your way, but that causes more problems than it solves.

That's why the low man has right of way. He can't see above him. Higher jumpers have to avoid HIM.

[yjumpinoz 0]

Maybe its time for us to carry TCAS and GPWS. I guess planes still hit other planes and the ground. Oops.

[skybytch 273]

It's not a swooping issue. It's a skydiving issue. Remember, the last incident in Eloy did not involve swoopers.

It may not be possible to memorize everybody's canopy colors, even at your home dz, but it is possible to learn to visually recognize the differences between a crossbraced canopy (very likely to fly a high performance pattern), a non-crossbraced "elliptical" canopy (likely to fly a high performance pattern) and a less aggressive canopy (likely to fly a traditional pattern). If you can do this, you can pretty much tell who's going to be doing what without knowing that Bob's canopy is black and green and he's a swooper or that Joe's canopy is all red and he does a traditional pattern.

How can you learn this? By spending some time in the landing area watching loads land while you aren't jumping.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I couldn't imagine memorizing canopies if I travelled to another place.

It's not a case of memorizing canopies. It's a case of making a plan before you ever leave the ground. Look at who's on the load with you. Try to determine what sort of group they belong to, what sort of jump they are making and make a guess'timate as to their experience level (looking at their rig can give you an idea if they're jumping a large or small canopy). Then try to figure out where you will fit into the landing pattern before you even leave the ground. Then once under canopy, re-evaluate the situation and find a spot in the landing pattern and land. Be proactive and only use your reactionary skills as a backup. Remember you're not trying to memorize individual skydivers, you're just trying to figure out where you're likely logically to be related to the entire load base on the type of jump you make versus everyone else. Sometimes it makes sense to be first down, sometimes it makes sense to be last and all to often it just makes trying to find a slot in the middle.

Finally, for those who insist on high performance landings, clear your airspace before you initiate your turn and for gods sakes have a backup plan if your swooping lane is not clear. I learned a semi-hard lesson a couple of years ago that there is more to life than just swooping (even though I still say that swooping rocks my world).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,990]

>If you can do this, you can pretty much tell who's going to be doing
>what without knowing that Bob's canopy is black and green and he's a
>swooper or that Joe's canopy is all red and he does a traditional pattern.

That solves some of the problem. But then what?

Let's say you are setting up to land, flying your 1.2 to 1 loaded Spectre back on a standard pattern. You have your head on a swivel. You turn onto final, and as your canopy swings to the right to make the turn, you glimpse one of those tiny crossbraced canopies hovering at 600 feet, getting ready for a radical HP turn into the landing area. Then you finish your turn to final and your canopy blocks your view of him. You are now at 300 feet. What do you do?

1) Continue your approach into the landing area.

2) Check left and right, flat turn away, and land out crosswind to avoid him.

3) Sashay hard to keep him in sight and land short.

I don't see 2) or 3) as very safe things to do - but if you do 1) then you might as well not even be looking for the high swooper.

[skybytch 273]

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Let's say you are setting up to land, flying your 1.2 to 1 loaded Spectre back on a standard pattern. You have your head on a swivel. You turn onto final, and as your canopy swings to the right to make the turn, you glimpse one of those tiny crossbraced canopies hovering at 600 feet, getting ready for a radical HP turn into the landing area. Then you finish your turn to final and your canopy blocks your view of him. You are now at 300 feet. What do you do?

1) Continue your approach into the landing area.

2) Check left and right, flat turn away, and land out crosswind to avoid him.

3) Sashay hard to keep him in sight and land short.

I don't see 2) or 3) as very safe things to do - but if you do 1) then you might as well not even be looking for the high swooper.

I prefer option 0). Avoid the situation entirely by being an active canopy pilot who controls my pattern starting as soon as my canopy opens. By doing so, I can be reasonably sure that there won't be somebody setting up their 270 or doing S-turns in front of me while I'm on final.

If there is so much traffic in the main landing area that I don't think I can do that, I'd choose option 0a). Adjust my pattern prior to entering my downwind leg so that I land out.

This doesn't guarantee my safety - there are no guarantees - but it does reduce my risk.

[likearock 2]

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Let's say you are setting up to land, flying your 1.2 to 1 loaded Spectre back on a standard pattern. You have your head on a swivel. You turn onto final, and as your canopy swings to the right to make the turn, you glimpse one of those tiny crossbraced canopies hovering at 600 feet, getting ready for a radical HP turn into the landing area. Then you finish your turn to final and your canopy blocks your view of him. You are now at 300 feet. What do you do?

1) Continue your approach into the landing area.

2) Check left and right, flat turn away, and land out crosswind to avoid him.

3) Sashay hard to keep him in sight and land short.

I don't see 2) or 3) as very safe things to do - but if you do 1) then you might as well not even be looking for the high swooper.

I prefer option 0). Avoid the situation entirely by being an active canopy pilot who controls my pattern starting as soon as my canopy opens. By doing so, I can be reasonably sure that there won't be somebody setting up their 270 or doing S-turns in front of me while I'm on final.

These are great guidelines but are only fully effective when everyone follows them. In Bill's example, the slower straight-in flier is at a distinct disadvantage if the swooper above and in back of him does not follow those guidelines. The fact that the swooper has a much faster canopy means it's difficult if not impossible to know if he'll be in the danger zone substantially ahead of time.

[penniless 0]

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Let's say you are setting up to land, flying your 1.2 to 1 loaded Spectre back on a standard pattern. You have your head on a swivel. You turn onto final, and as your canopy swings to the right to make the turn, you glimpse one of those tiny crossbraced canopies hovering at 600 feet, getting ready for a radical HP turn into the landing area. Then you finish your turn to final and your canopy blocks your view of him. You are now at 300 feet. What do you do?

1) Continue your approach into the landing area.

2) Check left and right, flat turn away, and land out crosswind to avoid him.

3) Sashay hard to keep him in sight and land short.

I don't see 2) or 3) as very safe things to do - but if you do 1) then you might as well not even be looking for the high swooper.

I prefer option 0). Avoid the situation entirely by being an active canopy pilot who controls my pattern starting as soon as my canopy opens. By doing so, I can be reasonably sure that there won't be somebody setting up their 270 or doing S-turns in front of me while I'm on final.

If there is so much traffic in the main landing area that I don't think I can do that, I'd choose option 0a). Adjust my pattern prior to entering my downwind leg so that I land out.

This doesn't guarantee my safety - there are no guarantees - but it does reduce my risk.

Landing out has its own risks. Alligators in Florida, for example.

I don't think people should be put in the position of having to land off just because some selfish individual might make a 270 (or greater) in the pattern.

[skybytch 273]

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I don't think people should be put in the position of having to land off just because some selfish individual might make a 270 (or greater) in the pattern.

But it's okay to be put in that position because some selfish individual who is not a swooper decides to spiral into the pattern?

This is not an swooper vs non swooper issue, people! We are ALL part of the problem. The last incident in Eloy had NOTHING to do with swooping. Until you all get over the blame game we aren't going to get anywhere.

[billvon 2,990]

>The last incident in Eloy had NOTHING to do with swooping. Until you
>all get over the blame game we aren't going to get anywhere.

For the most part, the problem with swooping isn't swooping (flying fast over the ground.) The problem is that some swoopers are not following the pattern - and that IS what caused the last Eloy incident. The reason it's associated with swooping is that 270's are popular manuevers for swoopers. But if people started doing flat-turn 270's in the pattern at 200 feet, we'd see a similar problem. (The problem would happen in slow motion, so it would probably be easier to deal with though.)

If a swooper wants to do a 90 to final, that's not much of a problem, because he is doing exactly what everyone expects him to do - and he is looking where he is going. It's the people _not_ doing 90's who are the problem, for whatever reason.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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If a swooper wants to do a 90 to final, that's not much of a problem, because he is doing exactly what everyone expects him to do - and he is looking where he is going.

2 things:

1) A 90 degree turn on a canopy loaded at 2.5 (hell even 1.8 on a velo does) still generates a LOT of speed and loses a lot of altitude. So vertical and horizontal closing speeds will still be an issue.
2) Just cause you're looking where you going, doesn't mean you see what you need to see.

I support seperate landing areas BUT I still think we're going to see these things happen, both in the 'regular' area and the HP area. I stand by the fact that I believe education is the most important part of any decision we make here. Take Danny, I don't believe he had EVER taken a canopy class. If members of the PD Factory Team can take them, then anyone can.

I know of DZ's that offered Scotts class for FREE to instructors but instructors didn't take them because 'they didn't need them'. I've seen 'experienced' skydivers say the same thing. To me, it's pretty clear where a LARGE part of the problem lies, and it's those (regardless of what wings they jump), that don't dedicate time to learning the one part of the skydive that we ALL share, regardless of discipline.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[billvon 2,990]

>So vertical and horizontal closing speeds will still be an issue.

Yes. But in any mixed-traffic area, they always are. Again, an analogy from aviation is appropriate. You can fly in an uncontrolled pattern with aircraft from Glasairs to Super Cubs (even though they have very different speeds) because everyone is flying a common pattern.

>I support seperate landing areas BUT I still think we're going to see
>these things happen, both in the 'regular' area and the HP area.

I think you're right. People will still collide. Heck, students flying the same patterns under Mantas have been known to collide (fortunately with much less fatal results due to their lower speed.) But I think that separating landings will go a long, long way to keep non-swooping jumpers away from the risks posed by people doing 270's.

[skybytch 273]

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I stand by the fact that I believe education is the most important part of any decision we make here.

I know of DZ's that offered Scotts class for FREE to instructors but instructors didn't take them because 'they didn't need them'. I've seen 'experienced' skydivers say the same thing. To me, it's pretty clear where a LARGE part of the problem lies, and it's those (regardless of what wings they jump), that don't dedicate time to learning the one part of the skydive that we ALL share, regardless of discipline.

I agree 100%. I submit that we can separate landing areas for swoopers and non-swoopers but until every skydiver is educated the carnage will continue.

The only way to be sure that every skydiver gets educated is to change the culture of skydiving so that it's cool to take a canopy control course. The fastest way to do that, imho, is to make it a requirement, not just for pre-A licensed jumpers, not just for swoopers, but for all of us.

[PhreeZone 20]

The last double fatality at Eloy was two non-swoopers both under large canopies.

The recent fatalities (2004-present) for canopy collisions or for avoidence of canopy collisions is split about 50/50 for if a person doing a turn over 90 degrees is involved or not. This is partally a swooper issue, but its an everyone issue at the root of it.

When people are willing to land 45 degrees off the wind line just to land closer to a target or hanger thats bad since they are flying across everyone elses landing area. Something I have been really bad about but will be fixing this year is groud carving. Its fun to turn your canopy 45 degrees in the landing but it does not play well when others are still in the air and are sure where you are really going to be landing at. WFFC used to be horrible when the winds would die down since everyone would land as close as they could to a packing or organizing tent and would have conflicting patterns. These are not swooper specific issues, but it is the unpredicibility of patterns that leads to issues.

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