skymedic 0 #1 February 6, 2002 So I have this friend who jumps out at a west coast DZ....this person who shall remain nameless only has 10 or 11 jumps...well the DZ thinks that it is a good thing for this person to be put under a somewhat smaller canopy...Well this particular DZ put's her under a CROSSFIRE......loaded at about .9 or so.....WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS ON OUT THERE?????an eliptical and they dont even have a license of any type yet....that is nuts.......sorry....but I am concerned about this person and hope they get smarter or the DZ does or something....well tell me what yall think of this?????marc"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 February 6, 2002 Right On! Hopefully by jump 15 he'll be doing 180s and swooping it in... Did you talk to the S&TA about your concerns yet? Or the DZO? That's what I'd do.Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #3 February 6, 2002 Ya, ya, ya.Just give us the names and we'll look into it!quadehttp://futurecam.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #4 February 6, 2002 PM a few CN's the name of the DZ..... Quade too since he si such a good guyI want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #5 February 6, 2002 Hmm.... well you know what I think of that! Have you told this person that canopy may not be the smartest choice for someone with 10 jumps... and why? PM me the dz's name if you don't want to post it. I'm curious... and I just happen to personally know a conference and a national USPA director...If the dz is a group member perhaps they'd be interested in this information also...pull and flare,lisa--What would Scooby Doo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jumperpaula 0 #6 February 6, 2002 Quote WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS ON OUT THERE????? Thank goodness you have friends here that can check and help out. Fly Your Slot ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fonz 0 #7 February 6, 2002 Quotethis particular DZ put's her under a CROSSFIREHow about hanging a 60 jump wonder under a (large) Stiletto because the Triathlons were all rented out? The poor girl obviously has zero swooping skill/knowlegde and used to fly a 7-cell rather than a 9-cell.Alphonshttp://www.liacs.nl/~avwerven/skydive Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #8 February 6, 2002 Quoteand I just happen to personally know a conference and a national USPA director...If the dz is a group member perhaps they'd be interested in this information also...Interesting. Is there a BSR or other rule that says students can't jump eliptical canopies? I really wonder if you have any recourse here. -Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fonz 0 #9 February 6, 2002 Not that I know of. However, students should be jumping canopies suited to their experience and skill. I highly doubt the latter is the case here.Alphonshttp://www.liacs.nl/~avwerven/skydive Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #10 February 6, 2002 I'm just saying pass the information on.... I have no idea what, if anything, they might be able to do with it.pull and flare,lisa--What would Scooby Doo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chicagoskydiver 0 #11 February 6, 2002 At Skydive Chicago all the students are flying sabre 2's which fly pretty similar to a stilletto.Hackey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #12 February 6, 2002 QuoteHowever, students should be jumping canopies suited to their experience and skill. Maybe the student is jumping a canopy suited to his experience and skill level, he's not jumping an VX loaded at 2.4:1. People are quick to condemn a DZ for putting a student under a lightly loaded eliptical canopy, but remember not too long ago people screamed when students jumped ZP, before that it was students jumping squares. Hmmm....-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #13 February 6, 2002 I have no problem with new jumpers under elipticals, as long as the wing loading is appropriate.Skydive Chicago does this, they rent out Stilettos (at a .9 wingloading) to their recent grads. I entirely support this._Am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #14 February 6, 2002 Quade and the Bytch...Info is on its way.....marc"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #15 February 6, 2002 I have no problems with students under Semi elipticals...but full elipticals is a whole nother thing......marc"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #16 February 6, 2002 Not to get into the same old argument again, but... a semi-elliptical canopy (like a Sabre2) loaded at .9 - 1.1 is different than a fully elliptical canopy (like a Crossfire or Stiletto), even at the same loading. It's not the landings that concern me and others, it's the responsiveness of the canopy. Since the dz wasn't named we can't assume that they are or are not teaching canopy control skills the same as they do at Chicago... and since the person being put under a Crossfire at 11 jumps isn't the one posting we have no idea what this person's skills are. My concern would be that this jumper may have no idea that he/she is being placed at additional risk by flying this canopy considering his/her limited skydiving canopy flying experience (even the most radical of you would agree than 11 jumps ain't shit, right?). If, and this is of couse an if, that is the case, then imho the dz is doing this person a disservice and, again imho, should be held at least morally responsible if this person is injured or killed under that canopy.pull and flare,lisa--What would Scooby Doo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #17 February 6, 2002 QuoteI have no problems with students under Semi elipticals...but full elipticals is a whole nother thing......Is this true? Then is it fair to say that students are OK under a Diablo, but most likely in danger under a similarly loaded Cobalt? Being 'semi-eliptical' isn't an automatic brand of safety just like being 'eliptical' isn't an automatic brand that a canopy is dangerous and can only be subdued by the most skilled pilot.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #18 February 6, 2002 Preach it loud Sista!I totally agree with the concept of progressive teaching, but I know for a fact that .9 is'nt what most the grads at Chicago are on the Stilettos at. I was seeing them more along the lines of 1.2 or 1.3 at about 25 jumps. These seemed to be the more show off jumpers with the brightest jumpsuits you can find and the whole deal so part is just they will aways be unsatisifed becaouse then they are'nt cool any more.But its wrong to put students who don't know better out on the same canopies. If the studnet is informed CLEARLY about what the canopy is, totally understands what differences to expect, and can nail the most challenging landings already then they might be fine on a semi-elliptical, never a fully elliptical. Fact is, its almst unheard of to do a few hours crossover canopy siminar to teach the skills needed to safely fly fully elliptical canopies. And hours are whats needed to really under stand the interworkings of the canopy and how to really fly it.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #19 February 6, 2002 Kicker is a Diablo is a fully elliptical canopy..... And yes.... A Cobalt is a harder to fly canopy the a Diablo, 9/7 cell diffs come in to play here too.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #20 February 6, 2002 Actually, it's not.From the Diablo home page QuoteThe Diablo is unique in being a full 25% tapered wing in a 7-cell low-aspect ratio planform. We invented a new octagonal-elliptical airfoil that uses a linear leading edge rather than the reverse sweep commonly found in other elliptical parachutes. Our Linear Leading Edge technology coupled with a breakthrough low-aspect ratio airfoil helps to greatly minimize two of the inherent negative tendencies of elliptical designs--off-heading openings and cross-control steering problems.If you'll visit the page you'll also see several diagrams of the Diablo, the leading edge is clearly straight. The Diablo is what most people refer to as a 'semi-eliptical' canopy these days.-Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #21 February 6, 2002 QuoteWe invented a new octagonal-elliptical airfoil that uses a linear leading edge rather than the reverse sweep commonly found in other elliptical parachutes. Reads to me like they consider it to be elliptical.pull and flare,lisa--What would Scooby Doo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mountainman 0 #22 February 6, 2002 I think it would be good to post the DZ so those who jump there have a fair warning to watch their asses. (And to those of us who are dying to know.)(Or you can PM it to me, Marc. Thanks man.JumpinDuo.com...come and sign the guestbook. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #23 February 6, 2002 QuoteReads to me like they consider it to be elliptical.Did you look at the diagram on the Diablo web page? The clearly show a straight leading edge - despite how they market this canopy it is what people these days often refer to as 'semi-eliptical'.Here's a review, from dz.com, by Wendy Faulkner, she also describes a straight leading edge.QuoteFastest turning parachute I've ever jumped. 1999-10-06Reviewer: Wendy Faulkner What a sweet parachute. Fastest turning parachute I've ever jumped, yet because of its straight leading edge, it opens on-heading every time. Its so much fun to fly, and it surfs like a dream. I love the stablility of the 7-cell design. -Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #24 February 6, 2002 Having a straight leading edge does'nt mean its not elliptical. The Jedei has a truly straight leading edge and yet its not a Semi elliptical canopy. The Jedei is a FULLY Elliptical canopy that is very similar in some of the respects to the Diablo.I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #25 February 6, 2002 QuoteHaving a straight leading edge does'nt mean its not elliptical. The Jedei has a truly straight leading edge and yet its not a Semi elliptical canopy. The Jedei is a FULLY Elliptical canopy that is very similar in some of the respects to the Diablo.What are you talking about? The common test today seems to be straight leading edge or no straight leading edge. The Safire, Sabre 2, Spectre, and even the PD Navigator all have a straight leading edge and a tapered tail (just like the Diablo), are they also FULLY ellipitical? Certainly we'll agree that the Stiletto, Cobalt, Vengeance, and Crossfire are all fully elliptical canopies, and each of these has a tapered leading edge as well as a tapered tail. What's the test for 'ellipitical' vs. 'semi-ellipitical'? It seems that some people are suggesting it's nothing more than marketing speak. (The manufacturer says it's ellipitical, so damnit it's ellipitical) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
