This will piss off the canopy nazi's

[skybytch 273]

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Well, this Canopy Nazi is about to step down since it seems like people just ask enough people to hear what they want to hear then ignore all the advice from everyone else. I've came to realize that my opinions must seem so old fashioned to everyone so I'm about done posting them.....

Hey, you can't step down til after I do....
So what the hell - check my new post for details - CN#1 hereby retires...
pull and flare,
lisa
--
What would Scooby Doo?

[Spectrejumper 0]

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I think a much smarter question for Icarus would be to ask when was the last time they actually sold an "Icarus Student ZP" to a Dropzone.

Well I can't tell you the last time, but I can tell you we bought eight of them last year at Frontier. They're great student canopies. They are very forgiving of the most common student landing error: flaring too high. I can't tell you how many students I saw get their asses saved last summer.

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The fact that you learned on ancient equipment does not mean the rest of the world needs to.
This is hardly the first dropzone to put young jumpers under "high performance" canopies.
People used to say Roger Nelson was nuts when he put first jump students under Squares. Then they said he was nuts when he put first jump students under Sabres. Then they said he was nuts when he put first jump students under Safires. Now they say he's nuts when he puts students under Sabre 2's.
Note Roger Nelson also puts recent grads under Stiletto's - AT A RESEAONABLE WING LOADING.

I don't think anyone is advocating a return to round canopies for students. I don't think you'd get too many arguments regarding "semi-ellipticals" either. (e.g. Spectre, Sabre2) But the vast majority of people on here would agree with me that no one anywhere near student status should be jumping a Stiletto. I have my doubts as to whether you should be jumping a Stiletto, but perhaps you've greatly improved since the last time I saw you land a canopy. Maybe the old "500 jump rule" before getting a Stiletto is a bit much, but then again maybe not.

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What pisses me off about this debate is that it comes up so often, yet people never admit that it's a debate. You get postings like the one that I'm following up to, that DEMAND that technology never changes, that students today must use the outdated gear that students used 20 years ago. The fact that DZ's are still throwing out students with 20 year old gear is the problem, not DZ's who actually keep their gear current.

New technology is great, but the newest high performance technology is not the best for the most inexperienced. Note that I said inexperienced. All the education and training in the world is no substitute for experience.

Mike D-23312
"It's such a shame to spend your time away like this...existing." JMH

[AndyMan 7]

Mike, the last time you saw me land a canopy I had 20 jumps, so - yeah, I hope I'm a hell of a lot better!
And I still insist that wing loading has a hell of a lot more to do with it then planform.
Have you ever jumped an eliptical loaded below 1:1? Give it a try.
_Am

[Spectrejumper 0]

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And I still insist that wing loading has a hell of a lot more to do with it then planform.
Have you ever jumped an eliptical loaded below 1:1? Give it a try.

They don't make 'em that big.
Mike D-23312
"It's such a shame to spend your time away like this...existing." JMH

[LittleJumper 0]

Thank you landmissle for sticking up for me. Yes, it was me! And I have to say that landmissile DID inform me on every aspect of that canopy. I would never have jumped that canopy had our senior AFF instructor thought it not safe.
To be honest with you...this was one of the most near perfect landings I've had since starting this sport. It responded very well and I"m not that aggressive with my turns to begin with so that was not an issue. AND I handled the flying very well. It lands much smoother than what I was trained on...and if the DZ didnt think I was ready for it...they would not have EVEN suggested it.
But, all in all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But...given the thorough briefing from landmissile...I handled it very well.
What you "think" you cannot do ...you CAN if you "think" about it

[lummy 4]

GEEZ, Don't check the boards for a few days And ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE.......
And YES, I was there as well, will attest to EVERYTHING that Landmissile stated and not only that, but agree with him as well. I was sitting at the SAME table and heard it all. To sum it all up, Attached is an e-mail I received and replied to from Terri . The way it was relayed to me, Marc was more concerned about the Crossfire's safety issues. I have no idea if this were actually what was said between the two of them, so I only responded to my friends concerns.
I WROTE:
Es possible...... hmmmm were you on AOL or Yahoo? I was on Yahoo for a
bit
but didn't see you.
AS for the Crossfire.... First off, every single person you have
talked
to will give you a different opinion. Your job is to take into account
everyone's opinion, filter and process all this information, taking
into
account experience levels, how well you know the person and how well
they
know you, and FORM YOUR OWN OPINION. Yes, there have been issues with
certain crossfires, but as you will learn from experience, Manadatory
bulletins and maintenence on canopies and containers are a fact of
life.
Did you know that Raven reserves are under a mandatory bulletin by
the
manufacturer? Do you know what reserves you have been jumping?
Ahhh....
didn't think so.
Do a search for Crossfire in the safety forum. There was QUITE a
bit of
discussion about the Crossfire when the problems were first being
noticed.
There was a mandatory recall for some and a mandatory reline for others
while some were unaffected.
As a side note, and I'm not trying to say that (NAME WITHELD) is the be all
end
all, but he is S&TA (you do know what that means, right?) but I would
respect(NAME WITHELD) opinion more than some guy I've never jumped with nor
met.
(NAME WITHELD) would also be aware of any problems with canopies and I am
confident
he would NOT recommend one to you if he wasn't sure you were safe.
Also,
take into account that you are very lightly loading ANY canopy you are
jumping. BTW, do you know how to calculate your wing loading? What is
your
wingloading on the Crossfire 169 AND the Omega 189?
BUT I would still take into account that Marc is a skydiver and
his
opinions have been formed by similar means. Take it with a grain of
salt.
Listen, don't ignore an opinion, use them all to make your own
opinion.
TERRI WROTE At 10:29 AM 2/5/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>i'm thinking of doing a couple of coach jumps this sunday if the
weather
>is good. since i need to bring beer, i can pick you up & we can stop
at
>Bev&More before we go.
>
>i talked with Skymedic for awhile last night. he said i was crazy for
>jumping with the crossfire and especially with so few jumps. there
seems
>to be some kind of manufacture problem with it, caused a few
fatalaties in
>Florida. no one seemed to be concerned at the DZ. what's up with
that?
>
>Well, i'm off to get a quick run in before work. have a great day!
Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....

[skymedic 0]

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Bottom line: some assumptions were made here about carelessness or negligance. That is simpley incorrect and unfounded. You may not agree to the concept (ellipitical canopies for newbies...) and you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but to try to start a bad-mouthing crusade on 2nd hand or incomplet information is uncalled for. Had I done the same, this forum would have ripped me a new ass-hole.

How can it be a bad mouthing campaign when only the party's involved would be the one's that know.....I did not say the jumper involved and did not say the DZ eather....
and I still dont think it is a good idea to put a new jumper on a crossfire that doesn't even understand "wingloading"....
marc
"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape"

[skymedic 0]

One more thing....I am one that picks up the peices when people fk up....This is why I posted this in the first place....
I hate it when I have to care for a fellow skydiver...that just sucks...
marc
"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape"

[MarkM 0]

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And I still insist that wing loading has a hell of a lot more to do with it then planform.

I don't disagree with this at all, but the training should probably change based on the planform. Figure the sport is starting to teach semi-ellipticals and low loaded ellipticals to recent grads. In a few years students may be using semi-ellipticals on their first jumps. But is putting a new student on a Crossfire really in line with today's teaching practices?

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But, all in all, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But...given the thorough briefing from landmissile...I handled it very well.

The issue I have though is why did you need to handle it in the first place? I totally see the value in training students on gear that's similar to what they'll use when they graduate, but is a Crossfire on jump 11 really safe?
It's not about whether or not you'll make a mistake, it's a matter of when you're going to make your mistake and how big that mistake will be. At jump 10 or 11 you're very prone to make a mistake and when you make one it's liable to be a bigger one than if you had 50 jumps.
Will that mistake cost you more on a Crossfire than it would on a semi-elliptical or even a square ZP? If the answer is yes, then are there benefits on using the Crossfire that outweigh those added risks?
When recent grads come here and ask for canopy suggestions I see hornets, sabres, triathalons, and lot's of other good quality high performance forgiving canopies brought up but I don't ever recall seeing Crossfires mentioned. If a Crossfire isn't a good choice for a grad's first canopy, why on earth would you put a student under one?

[SpeedRacer 1]

Hey I'm a newbie but...
I've heard that Stilletos spin out if you get a line twist. Is it really a good idea to put a recent graduate on one of these?
One thing I like about my PD170 is that it is docile. Once someone packed me a severe line twist....(It wasn't my body position, the parachute continued to twist up like a wind-up toy after I was pulled upright)... Despite the line twists, my canopy stayed nice & steady the whole time while I kicked out of it.
Would a Stilleto be as stable as that?
My PD170 doesn't really swoop, but I like it becasue it is very stable and reliable. And when you're starting out, it seems to me you don't want your landings to be too,...uh,...INTERESTING!! if you know what I mean....
Speed Racer
"Fill your hand, you son-of-a-bitch!"

[skymedic 0]

Interesting point there speed...I didnt even think about the eliptical malfunction and maybe less than super stable pull that can happen too from a new jumper with one of these types...
marc
"...a mind stretched with new idea's will never regain its shape"

[rgoper 0]

marc:
i'm sure that this jumper is in no serious danger, since everybody and there brother are canopy experts! it's sad that you have to "pick up the pieces" but that's the way it is. how fast can i go, and whats the smallest, highest wingload i can get, precurses safety nowadays...sad but true. i'm in total agreement with lisa's views, and recieved very good advice from my initial divemaster when i originally ordered my first rig, he made damn sure he was right there to make sure i made an informed, intelligent decision, even though i only put 64 jumps on my first canopy, he was right to advise as he did. bottom line, everybody has to know there limitations, and there's always that famous "last page" at every D.Z. i've jumped at, that you have to sign before you jump. safety should come first, it really doesn't matter who knows the most about canopy designs, and mfgrs, what matters is who's landing it, and how much do we care for our newly introduced skydiver's safety. bad things can, and do happen to good people, i see it every day, there is no safety limit on how far we can go, and we all do look out for one another, which is what i see marc doing here, marc, my hat's off to you for bringing this up, knowing it could get you, or others "torched"
Richard
"Gravity Is My Friend"

[diverdriver 6]

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I've heard that Stilletos spin out if you get a line twist. Is it really a good idea to put a recent graduate on one of these?

Line twists on a stilleto do NOT automatically mean a cutaway. If you are hanging under the canopy with twists then you can kick out just like any other canopy. If you are on your back spinning (they most always seem to spin with you on your back if they are gonna spin) then it's an automatic cutaway for most people. (there are a few acrobatic people I've seen kick out of spinning line twists but I don't really recommend it without a lot of altitude and a lot of jumps under the belt.) This is being taught during the Freefall Transition class at Skydive Chicago and is reviewed during the emergency drill section of every pre-dive. They recognize that spinning line twists can happen from things other than just regular line twists. A toggle coming loose during opening can cause spinning line twists. Canopy damage can cause spinning line twists. So it's not so much the cause that is important is the action the jumper will take when they see it.
Under a litely loaded stilleto the chances for spinning line twists is decreased. This chance increases the heavier you load them.
There is talk on this thread of the "unpredictable nature of students". This is true. And I have seen many students "saved" from those unpredictable actions by Sabres, Sabre 2s, and Stilletos. A recent graduate with about 40 jumps made the mistake of landing downwind. Everyone does it. What this jumper DID NOT DO was turn trying to line up into the wind at a low altitude. After realizing that they would land downwind they kept going straight without turning and gave a full flare, tumbled the landing and walked away. This jumper was on a Stilleto 150. A few years back we had a visiting jumper at Skydive Chicago who tried to make it back from a long spot and crossed nearly half a mile of open, unobstructed landing area to get closer to the packing hanger. This jumper had about 100 jumps. After seeing this persons friend land downwind tumbling they decided to turn low to get back into the wind. This person did not walk away from the landing. A severe head trauma, broken face, broken wrist, broken leg. Oh, this person was jumping a Falcon 235 (is that a correct size. It was a 230 something). So is Skydive Chicago wrong for training and then letting a young jumper use a Stilleto 150? Proper flight skills (note I did not say canopy skills. We are not reinventing the wheel. We're training pilots here and we've been doing it for 100 years) is what needs to be trained from the start. We need to teach people to land like an airplane does. A traffic pattern. And these skills are not being taught by many places. You jump a big student F-111 that flys more like a round canopy than anything. You give it a full flare (if you're strong enough) and then wait for touchdown. After student status the leaps are greater for a person downsizing. My personal progression was a Manta 288, Raven III 249, Cruiselite 220, Maverick 200, then a big jump to a Cobra 150. This was all in my first 100 jumps. I currently jump a Stilleto 107. I think that the only way I could do it without injury was that I am already a pilot and have air awareness skills. The DZ where I learned certainly did not cover much other than feet and knees together. Skydive Chicago graduates that I see usually buy only one canopy size smaller than they were using on student status. No large leap. And they have plenty of canopy instruction along the way (that's a whole other thread).
But those who argue against agressive downsizing are also correct. If the DZ where someone is training can't handle the advanced canopy instruction then ABSOLUTELY they should not be putting students under these advanced canopies. Not every DZ is set up to do it. Not every DZ should. But more and more, there are.
Oh, and someone posted the things that Roger Nelson was criticized for doing. You forgot putting students out with Square reserves, throw out pilot chutes for freefall students, and two tandem progression for freefall students.
I guess that's more than $.02 worth of opinions. Maybe about $2.40 or something.
Chris Schindler
D-19012
ATP/CFII
www.DiverDriver.com

[thrillseek 0]

I have no room to talk, except of personal experience...
at 30 jumps or so, i got a wild hair one weekend and decided to go from a 288 manta, to a 210, to a 190, to a 170, to a 150. Fully loaded, i weigh 210 lbs....predictably, i turned too low and broke my ankle. A month later, a good friend hooked in under a 77 (500+ jumps) and almost died in my arms...lesson learned. Now i have the ultimate respect for not only my choices, but how they affect my "family" at the dz. Any dropzone that would put a student out with such a dangerous choice of canopies is one that i never want to visit--it's not worth the risk, no matter how much the dz needs the money.

[LittleJumper 0]

Listen up...my Dropzone people know me...they have seen what I am capable of doing. They have seen my sucky landings...including the hard landing i had with a "bigger" canopy! My instructors would never incourage me to "downsize" without knowing if I'm ready for it. Certainly...before I PURCHASE a canopy...i'd like to see what my options are. And by flying rentals...with the permission of the DZ that I have trained with...I trust them in introducing me to some different types. Not to my detriment...by no means!! But in good faith to my advantage! Here, Here to my DZ!!
What you "think" you cannot do ...you CAN if you "think" about it