Ranger Pic 2

[steve1 5]

Clay,
Relax! I respect your opinion. I know there are other branches of the service that wear the beret. I meant to say in the olden days, in the army, that was how it was. I know there are idiots in the military as well as some really good people who believe in what they're doing. I'd like to jump with you some day. Steve

[freeflir29 0]

Steve...I'm relaxed....it's just that things like taking away such a long standing tradition of the black Ranger beret that is a symptom of what's wrong with our military. I just got so fed up with all the PC crap I couldn't take it anymore. I as well as several friends have been through some shitty things because of our government trying to be politically sensitive......It's often the institution that is flawed...not the people. I served with some of the finest people on the planet in the military and I'll always be proud to have done so.
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[steve1 5]

Clay,
I know what you mean. I never went to Vietnam, but a lot of my friends and people that I trained with did. A lot of them never came back. Many of the veteran's who did come back spent a lot of time being fed up and angry at our government. One of the best sky divers that I once knew was Jeff Frangos. I think he is still jumping out there someplace. He was in Arizona. At any rate he was a helicopter pilot in Nam and had seen a lot of action. I heard that he once threw a bottle into a television set after listening to some blow hard politician talk about why we needed to stay in Vietnam. I knew another guy who wouldn't take his hat off when they played the national anthem, before he got on his bronc or bull at rodeos. He too was a combat veteran of Vietnam. Many people weren't very patriotic during that time period, and with good reason. I don't know of many people out there who want to become cannon-fodder without a good enough reason. You were in a lot longer than I was and can probably see things more clearly than I can. When you get to be an old fart like myself it's kind of fun to reminess about the good old days, even those days that may not have really been that good.

[freeflir29 0]

"it's kind of fun to reminess about the good old days, even those days that may not have really been that good."
Yes it is!!! Even though some shitty things happened now and again I wouldn't trade my experiences in the military for anything. In the end...good or bad...it made me a better and smarter person. They say the best lessons are the ones learned the hard way. I have plenty of those but I'm thankful for them....As for the Vietnam era vets.....It was a shitty time caused by spineless politicians. Luckily, with the exception of Somalia and a few other things the military has been pretty good for the last 20 years or so. My hats off to those guys. I have had a Vietnam vet or two really inspire me while growing up....and a few that scared me...LOL
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[Jesse 0]

In regards to above, I have been on active duty in the Army infantry serving with line units for 9 years, since I graduated from college and was commissioned, and plan on remaining on through retirement. I have heard many of those who leave the service for various reasons, my friends included, lament the political correctness, bureacracy, and misguided decisions of the leadership, and I agree in some cases. In other cases, it comes across as rationalization for other reasons for leaving the service that are more readily apparent (family conflicts/issues - by far the biggest, health issues, burned out, fed up, unmotivated, can't handle moving the family every 3 years anymore, or whatever). In many of the cases where folks who leave the service say "I was fed up with the bureacracy, PC bullsh*t, etc." I often wish they would just say something like, "I was proud to serve my country and lead America's sons and daughters and now it's time for me to do something else." rather than trying to rationalize the reason they left by critcizing the service for it's institutional shortcomings. Yes, as a government agency there's bureacracy and bureacrats, as there was in the Roman Legions and Washington's Continentals - soldiers throught human history have had to be fed, clothed, transported, and housed - and this all requires paperwork, email, etc. Yes - political correctness abounds. We recognize Asian-Pacific Islander month every year, and talk to our soldiers about supporting charities during a charity drive every year, and we don't let them sing lewd cadences while running in formation anymore. Slowly, and irrevocably we are becoming more and more professional - many people who have been around to witness these changes over the past 20 years are not happy. They say the military's been emasculated and turned into a bunch of choir boys. However, we are more lethal than we've ever been. We remain focused on combat and fighting every day and continue to train our soldiers for a faster and deadly changing battlefield. From my perspective, we've just become more professional. I've always thought that one big part of our job is to send these young men and women back to their moms and dads as better Americans than when they arrived on our doorstep. To some this is a painful transformation. Any American who has served even one day in the armed defense of this country has contributed to our nation's safe keeping and should be proud of their service. Those who have had the privilege to serve, whether they know it or not, will always be our unofficial spokespeople to the American people and their observations and reflections on their service will be how our armed forces are known and thought about by the American people. As for me, I stay on because of the 18-year old privates. There is a new generation that graduates from high school and must be trained and led every year. These young men and women will bear the brunt in combat - they will do the fighting and the dying. And they must have the best that we can give them - leadership, equipment, weapons, training. That is our duty as professionals, that is what their parents expect and demand - and that's enough for one lifetime, mine anyway.

[steve1 5]

Jesse,
It's good to know that we have such good people in the army today. You should be commended on the job you are doing. I think things have improved greatly over the past 20 years since I was in. Leadership back then was not always as good. I understand now, if you are passed over for promotion you can be forced out. This may be a good thing. Only quality people will remain in leadership roles. I'll bet your men have a lot of respect for you.

[steve1 5]

Clay,
I remember working with some Air Force people back in the olden days who wore a Black Beret. We had a field problem down in Southern New Mexico with them. We flew down from Bragg in a C-130 and made a night jump in. I think it was called a black bird or something. At any rate it had a terrain following guidance system on board. So for the last 50 miles or so we were supposedly flying below radar. We could feel it going up and down as it followed the terrain going in. When we got over the drop zone the green light went on. This early day GPS was all new back then. We used to use lights (at night) or panels (during the day) to mark the DZ. These could be hard to see when you were jumpmastering a 141 because of the wind deflector they used on that aircraft. It was hard to see around. But anyway the green light went on and we all left the 130. This was one of those jumps when I never did see the ground because it was so dark. It's no fun riding your rucksack in. One of the people on our A-team needed to be medivacked out with a hurt back. The next morning we met up with the airforce people that I mentioned earlier. They seemed very hard-core and well trained. They showed us how to set up some type of box, usually on top of a hill. This was usually within about a half mile of a target. Jets would then home in on this and fly a track and a distance to a target. We also got resupplied once by a jet that jettisoned it's fuel tanks on it's wings. They had small drogue chutes on them which slowed them down some. It was a fun exercise that involved a lot of aggressors including Seals and Marine Recon. Does this sound like any of the stuff you used to do? I hope I'm remembering all this stuff right. It's not easy when you have CRS disease.

[Jesse 0]

Lots of folks wore unofficial berets in the 70s, and Air Force does have some outlandish ones, I've seen TACP weather guys with grey berets I think, and lots of other combinations, like STS (AF CCT guys) and PJs I think still wear a red beret that is a different shade than the Army airborne maroon beret. It all gets very labyrinthine. Of course, we (Army Rangers) now wear the tan beret, since the Army changed to all black berets. The guys you're talking about sound like TACP (tactical control party) AF operators involved with terminal guidance of aircraft-delivered ordnance. Used to be, you had to had to have a guy on the ground with a laser designator to paint a target with an IR laser to get a laser splash for a bomb to travel down it and connect with the tgt. Now, with the GPS smart bombs, the pilot can paint and guide it for himself from the cockpit. He just has to keep the designator on the target. Although you still need terminal guidance on the ground, the roles have changed with the technology. Although, I'm just a grunt and may have this stuff all mixed up. ALSO, the wind deflector on the C-141 hasn't changed - it's still a bitch to see around when jumpmastering, but the good news is that all the C-141s are being systematically replaced with the C-17, which has an awesome built-in wind deflector and jump platform, you can literally stand outside the a/c on the platform and do your outside air safety checks without more than a little breeze blowing on you - awesome.

[freeflir29 0]

"They showed us how to set up some type of box, usually on top of a hill"
Oh man...."Beacon bombing" I never did it but it always seemed a little on the dangerous side. Very easy to make a fatal mistake!!!
"I've seen TACP weather guys with grey berets I think"
OMG....Please don't refer to "Combat Weather" guys as TACP. That would be equivilent to me refering to some supply guy as a "Ranger Door Kicker" LMAO. Although technically a Tactical Air Control Party consists of Enlisted Terminal Attack Controllers, Radio Maint. Support, and Air Liason Officers the only folks really reffered to as TACP are ROMADs. Romad....that name has changed a little over the years. Used to stand for Radio Operator Maintainer And Driver back in the Vietnam era because we were only allowed to control CAS in an emergency. The Officers were the only ones "qualified" to control. Now it stands for Recon Observe Mark and Destroy...Whatever...it's a ctachy name with a lot of history behind it. We tend to be reffered to by Army guys as anything from "Hey Air Force, ETACs, Combat Air Controllers, Some freakin Air Force Guy, etc etc etc" So yeah...that's exactly what I did in the Air Force. I'm suprised you didn't have guys jumping with you but we really were only permanently assigned to SF groups since the lessons of Desert Storm. Believe it or not there are ROMADs assigned to EVERY single combat arms unit in the Army now. Every Armor, light infantry, Mech Infantry, Ranger, SF group, and even some guys assigned to some of the "Special Units" that no one will admit the existance of. Being an expert in Fire Support as a whole makes you an in demand type of guy. With the right ROMAD as "Man # 13" on your team you can easily take on an entire Batallion and come out without a scratch.
Here's a link you might find interesting.
http://66.34.153.66/pao.htm
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[Jesse 0]

Hey, like I said, man, I'm just a grunt and probably have it all mixed up. That's so true about Army guys calling airman around us "hey air force guy, ETAC, STS, CCT, PJ, romad, or whatever - just get over here and get me some CAS!" I'm just as guilty as all the rest - thanks for setting it straight - sorry about the weather guy thing; in our unit they work in the same office as the TACP so we never really know who's who.

[steve1 5]

Jesse and Clay,
Have either of you two ever jumped out of a C-5? I heard that the 82nd was doing this back in the 70's. This is one big aircraft. It makes a 141 look tiny. I wonder about the feasibility of this though. Is there a practical use for this type of operation? It would probably take a dozen passes to get everyone out on most drop zones. I suppose if a long line of troops were needed, on line over a long area, this might be a good aircraft. I imagine some very heavy equipment could also be dropped quickly.

[Jesse 0]

Yes, we jump the C-5 on a pretty regular basis, actually. It really is a huge aircraft, you load cargo and jumpers through the nose of the aircraft. The nose raises up on a hinge and ends up above the flight deck. You can put hundreds of jumpers on one aircraft, although you have to do multiple passes because no DZs exist that have enough time to put them all out, and you end up maxing out the anchor line cables anyway. Another interesting thing is that the aircraft actually has to approach jump run and climb in order to stay in they air, so that it doesn't stall, at the jump speed because it's so big. So as you exit, you're walking down-hill towards the jump doors, because the nose is raised. The jump feels virtually the same as a C-141 or C-130, with just a little more prop blast. It's an awesome site to see that thing come over the DZ at low level - seems impossible that it flies, like a skyscraper with wings. It's big enough to play a regulation game of basketball inside.
JP

[freeflir29 0]

Yeah...I got one jump out of a C-5. Didn't see them too much at Bragg and only occasionally at Ft. Campbell. I'd rather jump a C-17.....much nicer airplane! "I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[hisgoofyness 0]

yeah the c-17 is much mo' better
you know it can do l.a.p.e.s. just like a 130 right....
i was getting out of the air force when the 17 was first coming in to service so i never got to jump one
man that would have been great
hisgoofyness
its a bird, its a plane, no wait, its one goofy s.o.b.

[steve1 5]

Jesse and Clay,
I've never jumped a c-5. Sounds awesome. I'm not familiar with the C-17. Technology is changing things at a rapid rate. I was just wondering if the military is still jumping t-10s. When I first started that was what we were using, with two shot capewells, and reserves with no pilot chute. Later we started jumping mains that had some modification for a little bit of forward speed. When I was at Perris, over Christmas, I talked with a British Para-trooper. He said they made practice jumps all the time from around 600 ft. I wonder if he was pulling my leg. I know combat jumps may be down to around 500 ft., but I've never heard of jumping that low on a practice jump. In the olden days we never left an aircraft below 1200 ft. This guy was saying that with a new type of chute that they are using it is fairly safe to jump this low. I'm just wondering what type of chute this is. The guy seemed honest and he was a good skydiver. Does this sound right to you guys?

[thrillseek 0]

OK, I'll bite....
i don't know about the other rangers on here, but i know i went through particular hell to earn my BLACK beret, and myself as well as a lot of other rangers i talk to are mad as hell about destroying our traditions. How hard would it have been to give the rest of the army the tan beret?? I would be willing to be my left testicle that the tan ones cost something like 2 cents extra, and in order to save a teensy amount of money, the told the rangers what they always seem to...BOHICA!
From the bottom of my bruised, blackened, hardened heart, i thank you, Gen. Shinseki. I'm glad you made an impact on the military...maybe you'll get promoted! Atta boy!!

[freeflir29 0]

"Does this sound right to you guys?"
Yep! It's crazy but they can do Combat jumps from 200Ft in that rig! It has a huge suspended weight in the middle of the canopy that makes it open faster. I never jumped one and really was never in a hurry to..LOL.
Yep...the military is still using T-10's mainly and sometimes -1C's that have panels cut out for forward drive and toggles. The reserve has changed. When I went through jump school in 96 they were just starting to introduce the MIRPS reserve. It has a spring loaded PC just like a civilian rig. Looks almost the same as the old reserves. One problem.....Sometimes they get tension lock. The inspectors went into the loft at Bragg and randomly picked 10 reserves out of some differen't bins. 6 out of ten failed to open when they pulled the handle. Since it would cost a bundle to fix it they just changed the emergency procedures to Pull and drop the handle, Strike the reserve vigorously with closed right hand, You have the rest of your Airborne life to get this thing to open. Thanks guys!!!! Glad I don't have to jump that crap anymore!!!
"It's the cans..they're defective. Stay away from the cans"-Steve Martin
Clay

[bill2 0]

Just curious, why does the military still jump with round chutes? I've heard they are really hard on landing. Why not go to rectangular chutes like in civilian skydiving? When I was going through Advanced training in Combat Engr back in '74, our senior drill sgt who had been in the airborne during the 60's said it was like jumping off of a 3 story building everytime he landed.

[freeflir29 0]

"why does the military still jump with round chutes?"
Because with round chutes you can do a couple of things. First of all getting out at 500 FT. and having a reasonable chance of surviving. Two, you can put one person out the door X2 doors per second and they most likely wont run into each other and entangle. Three, rounds are very stable so you can strap crazy shit like 50 pound mortar base plates and 6 ft long Stinger missles to people without much problem. (As long as they fit through the door) Four, they are very reliable and simple for the operator (We are talking about mostly Army Infantry guys jumping them) You only have one emergency procedure now. If you don't get a chute in 4 seconds pull the handle....Thats it...pretty simple...
"It's the cans..they're defective. Stay away from the cans"-Steve Martin
Clay

[bill2 0]

Because with round chutes you can do a couple of things. First of all getting out at 500 FT. and having a reasonable chance of surviving. Two, you can put one person out the door X2 doors per second and they most likely wont run into each other and entangle. Three, rounds are very stable so you can strap crazy shit like 50 pound mortar base plates and 6 ft long Stinger missles to people without much problem. (As long as they fit through the door) Four, they are very reliable and simple for the operator (We are talking about mostly Army Infantry guys jumping them) You only have one emergency procedure now. If you don't get a chute in 4 seconds pull the handle....Thats it...pretty simple...
"It's the cans..they're defective. Stay away from the cans"-Steve Martin
Clay
____________________________________
Thanks

[steve1 5]

Actually a round isn't that bad to land under the right conditions. I've made a lot of standup landings under a standard T-10. It does really piss off some ranking people sometimes (to do a standup) because you're trained to always do a PLF. Don't get me wrong. If you are jumping a round, knowing how to do a PLF is very important. If the wind comes up you can really be slammed into the ground hard and being able to do a PLF is what saves you. You also need a good helmet. Especially if you are backing up. The old steel pots, we used in the olden days in the army, left a lot to be desired. A buddy of mine has over a 1,000 jumps on a 28ft. round. When sport jumping,back in the 70's, everyone wore French jump boots. The air cushions and ankle support really helped.

[freeflir29 0]

"The old steel pots, we used in the olden days in the army, left a lot to be desired"
Heheheehee..the Kevlars aren't a whole lot better. Better than nothing but....On one of the last jumps I did before I got out I came in backwards, with equipment. It was a clear cool night. (The worst from my experience) I did my patented riser let up just after I heard my ruck SLAM into the ground and held on. I tried but just couldn't keep my head from smacking the ground. I rolled all the way over so I was pointing the opposite direction than I had been and still had enough momentum for it to sit me straight up. I immediately leaned to the side and puked. I remembered feeling the jumper pad hit the soft spot just under your skull and at the top of your neck. Hmmm....pretty sure that means I just got a concussion. I had my buddy check my pupils at the rally point with a flashlight and they were still the same size so I trudged on and survived the next 5 hours walking/running around in the woods! Ahh....the old days...
"It's the cans..they're defective. Stay away from the cans"-Steve Martin
Clay