Close call with a plane

[Joe_Kay 0]

This is the story, after a 6 way formation last weekend, a plane passed through our group as we were opening provoking much shouting and swearing at the stupidity of the private pilot and air traffic control who only called our jump pilot with the traffic call after we had exited.

Anyway, as a pilot in the UK and a new jumper here in the US I have been looking into the charts and procedures that are in place in the US and have been pretty shocked. In the UK drop zones are much more clearly marked on aviation charts than here in the US. Having clearly marked airspace around dropzones just strikes me a common sense and having spoken to people at a few drop zones this close call was by no means an isolated incident. Has the USPA ever approached the FAA to try and improve the marking of dropzones on the sectional charts or is anything else being done?

This is an accident waiting to happen.

[bob.dino 1]

Do a search on Tom Buchanan's name (tombuch here). He's written about the measures he's attempting to take.

[billvon 2,991]

> a plane passed through our group as we were opening provoking
>much shouting and swearing at the stupidity of the private pilot and air
>traffic control . . .

I think I'd be swearing at the stupidity of the spotter who put you out on a collision course with another aircraft in VFR conditions. That pilot, if he was flying VFR in class E (uncontrolled) airspace, had no obligation to check in with anyone.

>Has the USPA ever approached the FAA to try and improve the marking
>of dropzones on the sectional charts or is anything else being done?

Yes. There was the "column of airspace" approach that was considered years back. Drawback there was that it had to be defined years in advance. If you had to move to the airport down the road - you had to shut down for five years or so while the airspace change crawled through the approval process. And of course it would take even longer to open a new DZ.

There was also an effort a while back to improve dropzone markings on sectionals. Was tough to do because in the areas that really needed the warnings (i.e. the busier areas) the maps were so congested that the parachute symbol ended up 1/4 mile from where the DZ really was.

[D22369 0]

This is an accident waiting to happen***

yes it is, but it was your spotter who dropped the ball here...

glad everyone landed ok


Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[strop45 0]

Quote

I think I'd be swearing at the stupidity of the spotter who put you out on a collision course with another aircraft in VFR conditions.

In your experience, how easy or difficult is it to spot other aircraft? How much time do you spend looking before you are happy the air space is clear of traffic?

I ask as I jump at an 'uncrowded' dropzone with few other aircraft and so am never sure if looking and seeing nothing means its clear or that I'm going blind??

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[jsaxton 0]

Quote

I think I'd be swearing at the stupidity of the spotter who put you out on a collision course with another aircraft in VFR conditions. That pilot, if he was flying VFR in class E (uncontrolled) airspace, had no obligation to check in with anyone.

Here here!

Also since in the UK you punch clouds (that would NEVER happen here ;) I can imagine that marking the dropzones on the sectionals is especially critical.

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Has the USPA ever approached the FAA to try and improve the marking of drop zones on the sectional charts or is anything else being done?

This is an accident waiting to happen.

Yup, USPA is working on it, but the process is super slow.

The first thing I'll mention is that in the USA it is a skydivers responsibility to avoid jumping over other traffic. It is hard to identify high speed traffic far enough out to avoid a collision, but it's easy to see and avoid small aircraft. See Article 8 "Airspace" at: http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. It's a primer on general airspace issues around drop zones.

Your thoughts about improving sectional markings are good, but sadly most pilots don't use sectionals anymore. These days we are all using GPS, and because of technical issues, drop zones are not even included in any GPS or FMS system. I've been working on international standards to allow the boxes in big airplanes to recognize drop zone databases (we now have a new international ARINC standard to do that). The parallel step is to have the FAA build a digital database of active dropzones, and USPA/FAA/AOPA/ASF are working on that project. The next step is to get the GPS manufacturers to write code to display the new data. That last step is a bit off in the distance, but will be handled, I hope. Finally, we need to clean up the sectionals, and that too is in the works.

The aviation system is very stable, and that is usually a big benefit to our industry. Unfortunately, it's hard to change a stable operation.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[n23x 0]

I've said it a billion times if I've said it once, but I'll say it again:

In a scuffle between skydiving and GA, skydiving will NEVER win.

Spotting. It can never be emphasised enough. And there are allready enough morons on here that think green means blindly go. Don't be one of them.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[billvon 2,991]

>In your experience, how easy or difficult is it to spot other aircraft?

Usually not hard. I regularly spot small aircraft at Otay, and occasionally spot them at Perris. (Otay is often used as a reporting point so pilots like to fly over them.) I usually spend a few minutes during the ride up looking out windows, and 10-15 seconds looking beneath/under the plane once the door opens.

>so am never sure if looking and seeing nothing means its clear or
>that I'm going blind??

What I do is divide the area under the plane into 'sectors' and stare at each one for a second or two. Your eye is very, very good at picking out motion against a still background, so you'll have a better chance of picking out a moving plane against a stationary background if you don't move your head for a second or so. Roads complicate this because you get lots of motion 'hits' from cars when you do this.

[fcajump 164]

Quote

I've said it a billion times if I've said it once, but I'll say it again:

In a scuffle between skydiving and GA, skydiving will NEVER win.

Spotting. It can never be emphasised enough. And there are allready enough morons on here that think green means blindly go. Don't be one of them.

.jim

Jim,

I COMPLETELY agree with your notions of LOOKING for aircraft. However, it is not the case that the skydiver gets the worst of the situation...

Several years ago there was an incident where a jumper hit the tail of a plane that was shaddowing the jump aircraft. Jumper had a minor break (ankle?), but the plane went down with all 4 on board.

I think any efforts to fix this must include both pilots and skydivers (in addition to any controllers involved).

JW
D15598 1000+ jumps (somewhat experienced) and
Private pilot (ASEL) 100+ hours (newbie)

(Personally, when flying, I go well around any known DZ's unless I get confirmation that they are NOT jumping and I use "flight following"...)

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[xlh883 0]

I am a skydiver AND a Private Pilot. I sympathize with your position and have the fortune of being on both sides of the issue.

In my opinion the dropzones are marked well enough on the sectional charts with a picture of a parachute. Pretty obvious. It is the responsibility of both sides here, pilot and skydivers, to look out for one another.

I am biased to the skydiver side when I am jumping, but do make a bigger point to look at my charts when flying. I became a skydiver after being a pilot for 5 years.

Anyway, as has already been emphasized, spotting is probably the key here. From the pilot's point of view and air traffic control, if the pilot is not talking to ATC, which is not required in uncontrolled airspace, there is no other way for me to know if there is jumping going on without looking at my sectional, checking the Notices To Airman and monitoring the local frequencies in hopes of hearing something.

All this is proper procedure all pilots are taught to my knowledge. In my experience, the jump runs at each drop zone will change due to winds. How can you expect a pilot in other than the jump plane to know where the jump run is going to be? The DZ I jump at now adjusts the jump run after the first load goes. The first load goes based on the winds aloft forecast which is subject to change and has been wrong on occasion. I landed out because of this type of first jump run once so I speak from experience. I have had this happen on flights to. It is easier to deal with when you have ailerons and an engine.

Anyway, I am not getting on your case here. I just want you to understand there are many factors for another pilot in another plane near a dropzone.

Spotting is the easiest way to avoid this type of problem. One other thing your dropzone might consider is submitting a notice to airman (NOTAM) that would be given out to every pilot when he or she gets a preflight briefing. This not fullproof either as preflight briefings are conducted different ways and generally are not required for VFR flights.


David

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

From the pilot's point of view and air traffic control, if the pilot is not talking to ATC, which is not required in uncontrolled airspace, there is no other way for me to know if there is jumping going on without looking at my sectional, checking the Notices To Airman and monitoring the local frequencies in hopes of hearing something.

I'm not sure if its valid for US too. There is usually a INFO service in uncontrolled airspace. Our pilots have to report skydiving activity in uncontrolled airspace. Even if we throw a streamer.

[popsjumper 2]

Due to similar incidents, our DZ has implemented new jump run procedures.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[xlh883 0]

We have Flight Service Stations you can call any time and any where. Unfortunately, in July they are going from 58 to around 10 stations so it will be more inconvenient to use them and the briefers will not be very familiar with a given area at the time of a call. The system is going downhill thanks to privatization.

The "centers" are available pretty much anywhere also, but if you don't request flight following as a VFR pilot, you aren't talking to them anyway. Unless you were to monitor the frequency, you will never hear the announcement.

I am taking instrument lessons currently, and the airport I fly out of for them is near a dropzone. We always get flight following during my training for the traffic advisories as I would be wearing a view limiting device to simulate instrument conditions. Anyway, it is strange to hear those skydiving advisories and not be able to look out the window for traffic avoidance. It bothers me, but that is what the safety pilot is for.

David

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

I COMPLETELY agree with your notions of LOOKING for aircraft. However, it is not the case that the skydiver gets the worst of the situation...

Several years ago there was an incident where a jumper hit the tail of a plane that was shaddowing the jump aircraft. Jumper had a minor break (ankle?), but the plane went down with all 4 on board.

Are you referring to the Massachusetts incident? That private plane was actually lost and not in radio contact with ATC. The pilot's body was found with an aviation map spread open on his lap, IIRC. Shit happens, and that plane happened to be directly behind and 1000 feet lower, more or less.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[tombuch 0]

Quote

Are you referring to the Massachusetts incident? That private plane was actually lost and not in radio contact with ATC. The pilot's body was found with an aviation map spread open on his lap, IIRC. Shit happens, and that plane happened to be directly behind and 1000 feet lower, more or less.

Close, but not entirely correct. See: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001211X13693&ntsbno=BFO94FA015&akey=1

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[drdive 0]

Quote

Due to similar incidents, our DZ has implemented new jump run procedures.

And they are ???????


Please fill us in.

"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

"

[popsjumper 2]

Green light 15 seconds before GPS spot, open the door, stick your freakin' head out and check for spot and 360 degrees of air traffic, go when ready.


Gets the lemmings a safer jump, IMHO. Yes, I have been a lemming many times myself.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[MikeTJumps 4]

Back in the early 1980's, a proposal was made to have a separate blocked statement on the charts with the words, "Caution, High Intensity Parachuting Activity" in the area of the dropzones. It may have been placed on one chart, but of that fact I am not sure. That was in an article in parachutist which I have at my home and use when giving safety presentations to pilot groups. Nothing has been achieved in that regards since that time in spite of being presented to NOAA (the charting agency) and even giving it to Phil Boyer, the President of AOPA.

Right now, I'm at the PIA symposium in Reno, but when I get back home 2/11, I will scan the article and upload it for you folks to see. Perhaps a massive letter writing campaign will move this issue out of the "dead" files.

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[Joe_Kay 0]

Thanks to everyone that has posted on this thread, I have been interested in reading all of the posts from the experienced jumpers out there.

As a military helicopter pilot and someone who does a bit of private piloting I have a slightly different perspective to some of the other pilots that have posted. Sectionals are freely available to us and we have more rigid pre flight procedures. As I have sectionals I was therefore surprised that fewer private pilots are using them and it has made me think even more that something needs to be done to increase communication between skydivers and private pilots.

So here is my suggestion.
Every dropzone sends out an e-mail or fax to every airfield within a 100 mile radius. The dropzones could ask the airfield to display these notices on the NOTAM board with details of the DZ location, normal jumping procedures and times, monitored frequencies and contact details.

Granted this won't reach every private pilot but pilots talk to each other and this information would soon spread.

I also acknowledge that good spotting is very important and we should never just rely on one spotter but encourage the entire load to look for aircraft.

If the USPA got on board with this as part of the annual safety day then I feel we could reduce the amount of private pilots flying over dropzones unaware that they are even there.

As a pilot I don't want anyone falling through my rotor or wing any more than I want to fall through one while I'm jumping.

Joe

[tombuch 0]

Quote

So here is my suggestion.
Every dropzone sends out an e-mail or fax to every airfield within a 100 mile radius. The dropzones could ask the airfield to display these notices on the NOTAM board with details of the DZ location, normal jumping procedures and times, monitored frequencies and contact details.

Good idea. At The Ranch we have a notice available on our web site (see http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/pilot_caution.pdf). When I was S&TA I provided copies to many of the area airports, and distributed them when I spoke at pilot meetings, always suggesting that pilots post them at other airports. It isn't a perfect solution, but it sure does help.

The notice defines the nature of the activity, and many ways to identify the drop zone and communicate with us. I generally also include a second flyer with a color segment of the sectional and Enroute charts. Take a look at it, and make one for your own DZ. Safety Day is a great time to begin the communication with your pilot neighbors.

Pilots don't like to hear jumpers say "stay out of our airspace"...it's there airspace too. But they are receptive to learning about the potential conflict, and how it can be avoided.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[popsjumper 2]

EXTREMELY good stuff, Tom.

Thanks tons...as usual, you are one, no make that TWO steps ahead of the game.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[xlh883 0]

I like your idea of posting notices to pilots, but unfortunately, both places I fly out of don't really have stuff posted for piltos to read. There also is no where for pilots to hang out and shoot the !@#$. So, I suppose it won't work at every airport.

David

[Joe_Kay 0]

Tom,

Thanks very much that's exactly the sort of thing that I was thinking about. If people want to send your dropzone details out to local airfields you can get contact details for all the airports in your area by using the FAA search link at:

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/airports/airport_safety/airportdata_5010/

Unfortunately there are no e-mails on this but it seems like a pretty comprehensive list and there are phone numbers included.

Joe

[hjumper33 0]

Hop n pop from 3.5K, got under canopy, set up a nice conservative landing pattern, reach for the front at about 600, plane flies right underneath me. Not sure where I should have spotted for that one, but deffinatley didnt see him on exit.

p.s. Got told by the pilot later that he saw me the whole time and there was plenty of room. How long does it take to get a canopy in a front riser dive from ~500 feet? Plenty of time apparently.