Momentary Total Mal due to cold weather?

[LawnDart21 0]

Here's the background, I have 400 jumps, I jump a Mirage M1, and usually fly a Vengence 120, but have been jumping a Sabre 150 while waiting for my Vengeance to come back from PD. The M1 specs state that a 135 is the biggest main you can put in the M1, but everyone I have talked to, including riggers, said that 1 size too big isn't a big deal. I put the 150 in, and left the orginal closing loop in. It was obviously tigher to get the pin in on the 150, but the psi was still just over 20, maybe 22, which I believe is within reason for closing loop tension. I had made a bunch on uneventful jumps with the 150 in about 50 degree ground temps, then last weekend I jumped with a 34 degree ground temp. I dumped at 3500ft, and as I looked back expecting to see my d-bag come off my back, instead I just saw my pilot chute in tow (cocked and inflated) trailing out behind me. My pin was still in and altitude I was a losing....I thought about just punching my reserve, but thought if the reserve came out and the main decided to deploy, it might be ugly, so, given I was still plenty high, like 2800ft, I just started tracking, hoping the horizontal pull on the pc would pop the pin, and it did. I landed under my main uneventfully, but in retrospect, I'm not sure I made the right the decision. Here are my questions:
1) Is it possible the cold weather caused the closing loop to shrink and that is what caused the delay/hesitation?
2) If you have a cocked pilot chute in tow, meaning the pin could in theory come out any time, should you cut away the main risers first, or just go for the reserve?
3) What would you have done?
Any and all feedback (positive and negative) would be greatly appreciated, blue skies, Tom

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

Momentary Total Mal due to cold weather?

I know this is something of a dead horse, but...
It is generally accepted that a 'total' malfunction means that nothing is out of the container. Including the pilot chute.
-
Jim
Help with cancer research here.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Tom, in answer to:-
1:-umm dunno, doubt it.
2:-chop n go silver, I can't think of any type of mal that I wouldn't automatically chop.
3:-chop.
Dude, am I reading this right...you have a mal, you think about it for a while, then start tracking???? How long were yopu going to track for before you decided to change plans again....
"I'm not sure I made the right the decision" well you survived this one.
Methinks this thread is about to get busy.....
Seeing as its winter out there, folks, just a thought, check your velcro, if it gets damp and then freezes at altitude, you may be in for a fright.
Take care out there..
D

[weid14 0]

so "everyone" know better than the manufacturer? how long would you have tracked before initiating procedures? What about the pack job, maybe you got the canopy more bunched up in teh middle adding just that little more tension on the closing loop which was enough to tip the scale the wrong way... 20-22 psi is pretty high for a main pin pull. to cut away or not cut away a PC in tow -- every one has a valid argument either way. you must decided what to do -- it's your butt up there. (since you asked, I would have reached back and pulled the pin myself, if that didn't work, reserve. I'll deal with the two out.)

[FallinWoman 1]

What would I have done?
I would have reached back and tried to pull the pin myself. I would have tried once.
If that didn't work, I would cutaway and pull silver. I, too, would cutaway in any situation. I don't want the stress of deciding whether this is a cutaway and pull or just a pull situation. I would chop first no matter what.
Glad it all worked out ok!
Anne
"by stitches, cloth, and cord,...a god of the sky for those immortal moments."-Lindbergh

[freeflir29 0]

MMM...Sounds like you made a concious decision about your alti. Decided to try and work the mal. Everything went great. No problem! I would always cut away a PC in tow. Always.....
"Carb Heat On....Carb Heat On.....Carb Heat On..."-Phil Polstra Clay

[SpeedRacer 1]

I don't know about this closing loop being too tight thing.
My closing loop is tighter than a minnow's $%^*. I have a bitch of a time getting the pin into the loop sometimes, especially on cold, dry days, but I've never had a problem from it at pull time.
Speed Racer
What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork from my lunch?!
-WC Fields

[SniperCJ 0]

I also doubt the closing loop would have been affected by the difference in temperature.
I dont like the idea of tracking to try to get the additional drag on the PC. I think I would have tried to pull the pin like others have suggested, although Im not sure I could actually reach my pin to pull it. Might have punched the side of the container to try to knock it loose.
Yes, I would definately have cut away first. When the reserve comes out it probably would have freed the pressure on the main bag and you would have ended up with 2 out (best case scenario, worst case you might have had some entanglement).
Glad it worked out for you.
JC

[nacmacfeegle 0]

22 lb pull....probably more by the sound of the it If the PC isn't pulling it. Try this, put a pull scale on the closing loop of a rig, put the rig on and see how much pull you can exert, never tried it but the ergonomics don't sound too good.
I'm not into this reaching round shit, wastes time (okay in this case there was plenty), and I guess you are at risk of dislocating your shoulder as the deplyoment pulls the risers out.
Just my opinion..
D

[mnischalke 0]

everyone is pretty fast to dismiss this one:
"1) Is it possible the cold weather caused the closing loop to shrink and that is what caused the delay/hesitation?"
but, if it is a silicone impregnated closing loop, the answer is yes. It is possible. Silicone actually becomes sticky at around ten degrees.
peace,
mike

[chicagoskydiver 0]

Quote

Silicone actually becomes sticky at around ten degrees.

Is that true? Let's ask jtval...I'm sure he's an expert on silicone..LOL!
Seriously, though, in my opinion I would chop a pilot chute in tow for a couple reasons. One, it may cause the main to leave promptly if the container does come open. Two, you don't have to think about which "set" of emergency procedures to use. JMHO
Hackey

[weid14 0]

Silicone does not become sticky at 10 degrees. Silicone was developed initially as a very low temperature gasketing material, from there it has grown into may different things one is a very good low temperature lubricant. I work for a very large silicone manufacturer.... (no we don't make those)

[freeflir29 0]

(no we don't make those)
Dammitt!!!!!!!!!
"Carb Heat On....Carb Heat On.....Carb Heat On..."-Phil Polstra Clay

[mnischalke 0]

I am speaking from the experience I have had with the silicone lube I used on my guns, but it would get gummy at temperatures below freezing and had a tendancy to migrate in warmer temps.

[Slowfaller 0]

Quote

had a tendancy to migrate in warmer temps.

[english accent] Are you telling me silicone migrates?[/english accent]

" Quit your job and light a fart, eat your favorite private part " - The Man Show Song

[freeflir29 0]

"] Are you telling me silicone migrates"
Yes....In the fall it gathers in huge flocks to follow ancient migration routes South to wintering grounds. It will be back with the first thaw of spring....such is the cycle of life......"Carb Heat On....Carb Heat On.....Carb Heat On..."-Phil Polstra Clay

[LawnDart21 0]

While I appreciate the honest opinion D, to answer your question, I was gonna give myself until 2000ft to punch the reserve if the tracking didn't deploy the main. I realize every second counts up there, and yes, my first thought was "okay I have time to try and deal with this" and my second thought was to track, but both thoughts were here and gone in 1/100th of a second. I wasn't pondering the idea for any great length of time...lol....fearing an entanglement of the main/reserve, I just wanted to give the main dbag a good chance to clear itself (if it was going to) before I hit the reserve and added another canopy coming out off my back to the equation. Again, I appreciate the opinion, but I made a quick decision in a crisis situation which still left me an out if it didn't work (the reserve) I still had time and altitude, so I went for it. In retrospect, I might have tried to deal with it differently, which is why I made the post, to try and learn from others.
Happy Holidays to all.....And to all a good flight!
Tom

[nacmacfeegle 0]

The main thing is you were aware, rational, and actually did something to solve your situation.
Too many folk out there aren't heads up, and end up hurting themselves, and that's not good for any of us, this was obviously not the case here....
I'm not an instructor, rigger, or anything to do with STA, but I do believe that we can all learn from each other's experiences.
I agree, posting experiences like your one is a good way to stimulate thought, solicit opinions etc. Much better to think about these things down here. Just glad the situation was resolved without any drama.
Somebody else suggested punching the container which is probably what I would have tried first, I discussed this a few years back with an instructor, you can actually hit the container side pretty hard with your elbows. In retrospect, given the altitude, I would combine this with a wee track like yours.
Blue ones, and thanks for making us think about things again.
D.

[weid14 0]

then is wasn't true silicone... probably only a certain % silicone.... silicone is very stable over a wide temp range.
sorry it got off topic....

[freeflir29 0]

"sorry it got off topic...."
Don't worry....it gives me such excellent opportunities to make pathetic attempts at humor!!! "Carb Heat On....Carb Heat On.....Carb Heat On..."-Phil Polstra Clay

[mnischalke 0]

Actually, I think we stayed right on topic. We just decided that if there was any silicone in the closing loop, it wouldn't have changed its properties due to temperature, therefore shouldn't have caused the pin to hang up.
mike

[weid14 0]

true.... also the lube you're supposed to put on the yellow cables -- those cut away thingies.... is silicone, I hope it doesn't get sticky!!! (it won't if it's true 100% silicone)

[jfields 0]

I thought silicone had to be kneaded periodically to maintain proper elasticity.
j/k - Nothing to do with cables....
Justin
My Homepage

[Spectrejumper 0]

It sounds like the pilot chute wasn't fully cocked. It's also possible that your kill line has shrunk to the point of not allowing the pilot chute to fully inflate. I read somewhere that a main pilot chute exerts over 70 pounds of force on the pin, which should be plenty even if you have to really struggle to get the container closed when you're packing. So there's my $.02.
Mike D-23312
"It's such a shame to spend your time away like this...existing." JMH

[billvon 2,998]

> . . .but the psi was still just over 20, maybe 22, which I believe is within
>reason for closing loop tension.
That's usually true, but is affected by several variables, including PC size (a smaller one generates less force) the length of the bridle (longer = higher average force) and bridle routing (some routings increase pin release force, especially incorrect routings.) Also, the condition of your pin is critical. If one side is a bit rough, pin force will increase if the bridle tension rotates the pin a certain way - and that may not be the same way you tested it on the ground.
>1) Is it possible the cold weather caused the closing loop to shrink and that
> is what caused the delay/hesitation?
Unlikely. Most materials shrink when they're cold but it's a pretty minor effect over this temperature range.
>2) If you have a cocked pilot chute in tow, meaning the pin could in theory
>come out any time, should you cut away the main risers first, or just go for
>the reserve?
Personally, it would depend on the shape of my main riser covers.
Good riser covers - cut away first
Crappy riser covers - do not cut away first
>3) What would you have done?
I think I would have tried once or twice to free it (roll and reach back to grab the bridle) then cut away and opened the reserve.
-bill von