How to prevent brake release via slider, yet still allow slider pulldown?

[The111 1]

My rig is an Icon Sport with a Pilot main and some sort of soft links, I guess it's Aerodyne's version of a slink? With this rig I've always put the slider behind my neck after deployment, both for the "swoops" I do and also to get it out of the way of my big camera helmet.

I had a chop last weekend that I believe to be due to a toggle release on opening. I couldn't see since my head was pinned to my chest with linetwists, but when I recovered the main canopy later there was indeed one brake released, and it corresponded with the direction I was spinning (still, it could have released at some point after the chop). This has naturally got me thinking about my riser/slider combo and how to prevent this from happening again. Perhaps a stupid question coming from someone with my experience, but truth be told I've only owned/jumped one rig other than the one I have now, and it had Slink bumpers, but I don't think they allowed the slider to come down period (I was not in the habit of pulling my slider down with that first rig).

So, I am not really sure about what solutions exist on the market for this. Basically I'm faced with what seem at face value like contradictory goals:
- slider should NOT come past riser end during deployment
- slider should come past riser end when I want it to later

What systems are there that allow this? Attached is a picture of my current setup. There is really nothing in place to prevent the slider from coming too far. The top of the riser, with the 4 parallel tack lines, is pretty stiff and generates quite a bit of resistance when pulling the slider down, but obviously I now question that this resistance is enough. Would love to hear recommendations from other people more familiar with gear offerings in the current market.

[inline risers.jpg]

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Maksimsf 0]

Type 8 risers may help, but not if you still want to stow your slider behind your back.

[pchapman 279]

I've long liked risers that have a downward facing tab in addition to any upward facing ones. I would think this greatly reduces chance that a fast descending slider (that comes down onto the riser) will be able to push the toggle down and out of place (despite the solid covers most rigs now have for the top of the toggle.) It doesn't stop a slider ring from slamming down onto the riser, just should reduce the problems from that.

But that doesn't help you specifically with the existing risers; and toggles with a downward tab are rare. (And Pilots aren't exactly known as slammer canopies.)

Mirage used to have a design like that but a recent Mirage rig I saw no longer uses that idea. I have a nice set from Flying High (Canada) that uses a downward tab. Chuting Star has the Paraavis toggles that also use that feature. Not sure who else makes toggles like that.

[councilman24 37]

Read this http://www.chutingstar.com/more/skydive/expert-advice/53-russian-toggle-system-secure

The Russian toggles have TWO downward facing tabs.and.an upward facing straight.pin. The one possible issue I see with these just looking at the photos is if someone set them with the cat eye or loop around the toggle BELOW the.eye.on the past in. If possible and I'm not sure it is this might make.the brake impossible to release under tension. Need to ask Mike.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[theplummeter 15]

I haven't looked at a ton of risers, but have noticed that both Strong and Rigging Innovations risers toggle tuck tabs stow upward and downward requiring both an up and down motion to unstow them from the riser. I'm sure other manufacturers do that but those are the two I have personally viewed.

I would think that would help to prevent a brake fire in the scenario described in the original post.

[parachutist 2]

In between the top two parallel tacks you could tack a short piece of 600 lb dacron, fingertrapped back into itself. About 1.25" long. One side even with the edge of the TY-17 riser, the other size sticking out 1/4" past the edge of the riser. This piece would be parallel with those bar tacks, and located on the front side of the riser so it doesn't catch the brake line.

That's a quick fix. It would take some force to pull it down over that nub, and to push it back up

edited to add: even quicker, easier, and better looking in the end: take a piece of 1" binding tape, 1" long and fold it about 6 times, short folds. Afterwards it's still 1" wide, but stands around 1/8" thick now and maybe the last fold made it .25" tall. use this folded block for the same purpose as that 600 lb dacron mentioned above... mount it parallel to those 4 tacks, and make it stick out 1/4" past the outside edge of the riser.

Chris

[phoenixlpr 0]

Switching to other risers where velcro is used for securing toggles?

[excaza 1]

phoenixlpr

Switching to other risers where velcro is used for securing toggles?

How would that help?

[phoenixlpr 0]

excaza

***Switching to other risers where velcro is used for securing toggles?

How would that help?
A rushing slider would not free that brake handle secured with velcro.

[Southern_Man 0]

phoenixlpr

******Switching to other risers where velcro is used for securing toggles?

How would that help?
A rushing slider would not free that brake handle secured with velcro.

I've never heard about anybody having a premature brake fire on the jumpshack risers (secured w/ a snap).

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Deyan 36]

First of all, have those risers modified for other toggles or get a different risers.
I have nothing against Aerodyne, but their velcroless risers are by far the worst when it comes down to securing the toggles. They copied the UPT toggles, but changed everything else on the riser itself, so now those toggles fall off the risers almost without ant problem. Try this on your risers:
Set the brakes, grab the lines from the rear riser and give the riser a good shake. If the risers are older than say 50 jumps, there's a good chance that the toggle will fall off.

Many of the people with a toggle fire problem on an Aerodyne risers I know, have PD Slink hats over the risers, so the toggle being pushed out by the grommet was not likely.

The best toggle setup IMO is the one from Parachutes de France . Basically what Terry (councilman24) is talking about. I just don't know when the Russians came with this solution ,but I believe that they copied the French.

Quote

and it had Slink bumpers, but I don't think they allowed the slider to come down period

About this. The local DZ organizes a canopy course once every month or so. The target group is beginner jumpers working toward their "A" license. This is the first time that they are told to put the slider behind their neck. Many of those folks don't have their own gear yet and they hire from us. 100 % of our mini risers have those PD bumpers, and I don't know they do it, but when the gear comes back to us after the weekend, almost all of the sliders are under the bumpers.

I hope that any of this info helps.

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[Hellis 0]

Deyan

First of all, have those risers modified for other toggles or get a different risers.
I have nothing against Aerodyne, but their velcroless risers are by far the worst when it comes down to securing the toggles. They copied the UPT toggles, but changed everything else on the riser itself, so now those toggles fall off the risers almost without ant problem. Try this on your risers:
Set the brakes, grab the lines from the rear riser and give the riser a good shake. If the risers are older than say 50 jumps, there's a good chance that the toggle will fall off.

Many of the people with a toggle fire problem on an Aerodyne risers I know, have PD Slink hats over the risers, so the toggle being pushed out by the grommet was not likely.

The best toggle setup IMO is the one from Parachutes de France . Basically what Terry (councilman24) is talking about. I just don't know when the Russians came with this solution ,but I believe that they copied the French.

Quote

and it had Slink bumpers, but I don't think they allowed the slider to come down period

About this. The local DZ organizes a canopy course once every month or so. The target group is beginner jumpers working toward their "A" license. This is the first time that they are told to put the slider behind their neck. Many of those folks don't have their own gear yet and they hire from us. 100 % of our mini risers have those PD bumpers, and I don't know they do it, but when the gear comes back to us after the weekend, almost all of the sliders are under the bumpers.

I hope that any of this info helps.

Might be true that the toggle will fall out, but the test is not realistic.
In the real world air will push on the tail of the deploying canopy and keep tension on the brakeline.
This will keep the toggle in place.

So do that test aganin but put tension on the brakeline also.

[piisfish 140]

Deyan

The best toggle setup IMO is the one from Parachutes de France . Basically what Terry (councilman24) is talking about. I just don't know when the Russians came with this solution ,but I believe that they copied the French..

DING DING DING...
Just make sure that the toggle itself is well manufactured (not like the original PdF ones)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Deyan 36]

Hellis

Might be true that the toggle will fall out, but the test is not realistic.
In the real world air will push on the tail of the deploying canopy and keep tension on the brakeline.
This will keep the toggle in place.

So do that test aganin but put tension on the brakeline also.

Well, try this on Icon risers and then on any other velcroless risers you see around. You are talking about the moment the canopy is out of the bag. Toggle fire can happen before that.

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[hillson 0]

Why don't have you have a rigger tighten / snug the toggle hood by tacking them down a bit more? That's what I've done to a few pairs of RI risers. Basically a run of stitching down the *inside* of the existing stitching that runs from the 1st (4th?) horizontal stitch above the hood down to the hood opening.

Keeps the toggles nice and secure and have noticed zero difference unstowing (no hard yanks, hung toggle etc). I think I have a picture at home that I can find.

[Quagmirian 40]

excaza

***Switching to other risers where velcro is used for securing toggles?

How would that help?It would help prevent brake release via the slider coming down. Velcro has a high shearing force.

[Hellis 0]

Deyan

***

Might be true that the toggle will fall out, but the test is not realistic.
In the real world air will push on the tail of the deploying canopy and keep tension on the brakeline.
This will keep the toggle in place.

So do that test aganin but put tension on the brakeline also.

Well, try this on Icon risers and then on any other velcroless risers you see around. You are talking about the moment the canopy is out of the bag. Toggle fire can happen before that.

Are you saying Icon risers are worse than any other risers, or better?
I doubt my toggles will fall out if I shake the risers on my Javelin as you explaned and my rig has about 400 jumps now.
But I always make sure I set the brakes correct and do it neatly.


Sure the toggles can fall out before linestetch, but if it really is as bad as you say this must be a very big problem for almost all jumpers.
Yet I don't hear much about it.

The only time this has been a problem for me was when I jumped rentalgear in Poland.
Th keeper above the guidering was the old type (not the hat) and worn, each time the slider came down it would pop the right toggle.

[Deyan 36]

All I'm saying is that from all velcroless risers I've seen, the toggles from the Icon risers takes the least force to be extracted. Sometimes only the weight of the toggle is just enough when you give the riser a little shake. We can go forth and back all day long on this, but find a digital weight scale and measure them yourself.

Quote

Sure the toggles can fall out before linestetch, but if it really is as bad as you say this must be a very big problem for almost all jumpers.

I don't know how bad it really is. All I know is that the line twist is the most common malfunction (from what I've seen. No hard data here) and many line twists start from a toggle fire.

Quote

Yet I don't hear much about it

Not every toggle fire ends up with a cutaway. Not every cutaway because of toggle fire is reported as such. Most of them are simply reported as a line twist( which is actually true since that was the reason for the cutaway and the toggle fire was the reason for the twist ).

It's a good discussion, but we are drifting away from the OP's question. Let's stay on the track.

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[DougH 270]

I have a 750 plus jumps on Aerodyne risers.

Never had a toggle fire. I must be doing something wrong.

I will complain that I do have one set of risers that are a little wide for the stainless slider grommets, and I have to carefully work them past the toggles. But the toggles are not getting bumped out by a descending slider!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[jumpsracer 6]

Order a pair of risers from Jump Shack with snap toggles. You'll never have a brake fire AND you'll be able to do what you want with your slider!

[JerryBaumchen 1,367]

Hi Nic,

See the photo below; I think this is what you two are referring to.

JerryBaumchen

[DSE 5]

Matt,
I'd urge you to contact Angela or Brenda at RI.
Their system stops the slider at the risers, allows for the slider to easily come over the riser end/toggles, and the toggles have never once released in my roughly 5K jumps on RI systems.
I can show you empirical data about closing-pin systems having quite a few fires/cutaways, but it's not enough to say that it's "common."

[The111 1]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Sounds like I have a few different solutions to investigate. Never thought I'd be replacing risers/toggles instead of just using what came with a rig, but thinking hard about it now.

DougH

I have a 750 plus jumps on Aerodyne risers.

Never had a toggle fire. I must be doing something wrong.

Yeah, I had about that many on mine too. I definitely don't think it's a huge problem or something that's likely to occur. I can't even prove it is the riser's fault in the chop described in OP. But I can certainly prove it's possible, and I'd like to remove or minimize that possibility.

DSE

I can show you empirical data about closing-pin systems having quite a few fires/cutaways, but it's not enough to say that it's "common."

Sounds about right, see my other response above. Thanks for the suggestion Spot.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Hellis 0]

Deyan

All I'm saying is that from all velcroless risers I've seen, the toggles from the Icon risers takes the least force to be extracted. Sometimes only the weight of the toggle is just enough when you give the riser a little shake. We can go forth and back all day long on this, but find a digital weight scale and measure them yourself.

Quote

Sure the toggles can fall out before linestetch, but if it really is as bad as you say this must be a very big problem for almost all jumpers.

I don't know how bad it really is. All I know is that the line twist is the most common malfunction (from what I've seen. No hard data here) and many line twists start from a toggle fire.

***Yet I don't hear much about it

Not every toggle fire ends up with a cutaway. Not every cutaway because of toggle fire is reported as such. Most of them are simply reported as a line twist( which is actually true since that was the reason for the cutaway and the toggle fire was the reason for the twist ).

It's a good discussion, but we are drifting away from the OP's question. Let's stay on the track.

No that is not all you said, you first said ALL risers with 50+ jumps can't hold the brakes in place then you changed it to Icon.

I do not believe many linetwists start with a brakerelease either.
Looking from the ground you can clearly see when you have a brakerelease or just normal linetwists.
I believe most linetwists are due to packing and bodyposition.

It seems this is a local problem as others to has wrote they don't have any problems with their 50+ jumps risers.
Maybe it's something with how you are thought to set the brakes in your area.
And I'm serious, nobody else seems to have an issue with in my opinion "almost brand new gear".

[piisfish 140]

JerryBaumchen

Hi Nic,

See the photo below; I think this is what you two are referring to.

JerryBaumchen

These are the PdF toggles indeed, but there is a Safety Notice running because they are manufactured poorly, needs a little bit more length on the end of the tape or you risk that the toggle disintegrates in your hand .
http://www.ffp.asso.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/fs-23-05-14.pdf

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM