PalmettoTiger 1 #1 November 27, 2001 I'm not trying to start a flame war here or anything, just a quick question. I'm about to send mine in. As I understand it, the changes that they now need proxy votes to make are changes the board previously did on its own, but now that they've had a lawyer look over NY state law governing non-profits, those old procedures aren't legal. Is that accurate, or are the changes things the board hasn't done on it's own before? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #2 November 27, 2001 I thought the "before" method was the membership would vote on stuff and send their ballots to the board. The new method is that we will give our proxy to the board or someone who will attend and who will then vote on the various issues. Gemini... Fear? Fear is riding the plane down ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #3 November 27, 2001 This is the way I read it.....The current bylaws prohibit the board from changing the regional zoning make up. They need a vote of a certain percentage of membership to change this stuff. The vote cannot be a mail in ballot. It has to be either proxy or in person. Don't really understand that one but....I guess the founders were trying to protect our interests. "Shut up Dummy!"- Fred G Sanford Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PalmettoTiger 1 #4 November 27, 2001 ah, thanks for clearing that up. Makes me more wary of giving that proxy.... but hell, at some point you have to realize you can't spend as much time thinking about those issues as they do, and that you've got to trust your officials. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 7 #5 November 27, 2001 eh, I dunno... I don't like the idea of giving them a blank check. If they told us specifically what they were going to do/change I'd be happier about it. But the way it is now, they're not getting mine.I ain't happy, I'm feeling gladI got sunshine, in a bag Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #6 November 27, 2001 "you've got to trust your officials."Yep...I'm not sensing any evil intent or conspiracies within the USPA . Certainly, a lot of DZ's aren't really represented because they are very small compared to others in the region. Let's take the Southeast for example. Do you think Alabama, Florida, and Georgia are all equally represented? "Shut up Dummy!"- Fred G Sanford Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #7 November 27, 2001 The consensus on wreckdot. is that the very powerful DZOs (AZ, Chicago, Some florida and Calif people) are trying to leverage their voting power so that they can influence our policies and USPA regulations.Please read before you send it in.remeber the first dropzones were clubs and now the biggest are huge money machines where the DZO gets most of the money and employees/students/funjumpers are treated like bill payers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #8 November 27, 2001 I'm no expert here but it seems to me that making more zones...hence more USPA board members would dillute power...not give anyone a monopoly. Unless they have a line of cronies waiting to be "voted" in. Am I wrong?"Shut up Dummy!"- Fred G Sanford Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #9 November 27, 2001 Its just not adding more zones, its the fact that they can split existing zones to keep certian people in power or affect voting that way. If they split a state like Flordia, then you could only vote for the regional director where you live at. That would mean that people in power could draw the lines to make sure that they include areas that support them and get rid of all the doubters from thier district. Also by keeping just group member DZO's in power, they can kill any non-GM from doing anything like writein ballots. Granted, I don't want to think any BOD director would do this, but stranger things have happened.....I'm not sure what to put here right now..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #10 November 27, 2001 Well....I see your point but who are the Non-GM DZO's out there? Isn't it about $400 or so a year for a GM. I don't think that's excessive considering the amount of advertising they get out of it. "and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #11 November 27, 2001 There are over 100 non member DZ in the US alone. And it not just 400. Its based on the number of aircraft that the DZ uses and the Type of Aircraft, jumpers and a few other things. Perris pay's more to be a member then a C182 DZ. Plus some DZ ar'nt members for other reasons like dislike of the BOD, dislike of some rule or regulation the the USPA supported. They are speaking with one of the most powerful tools, their money.I'm not sure what to put here right now..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #12 November 27, 2001 "Its based on the number of aircraft that the DZ uses and the Type of Aircraft, jumpers and a few other things"Ahhhh....the plot thickens......"There are over 100 non member DZ in the US alone"Well.....to me personally it really doesn't matter to me whether a DZ is a USPA member or not. I'm an "Up Jumper" and make my own safety decisions. The only safety rules that really affect me are "Local" DZ rules and FAA inspection and maintenance requirements for the aircraft. Now....finding non-member DZ's might present more of a challenge but I have seen a bunch on "Skydiversenclave" that are not listed anywhere else. Still.....we get back to the representation issue. Just like the US Congress states with higher populations have more representatives. What we need is some way (I.E. US Senate) to balance out the representation between states like Alabama/MS etc and Florida/California.....Thats what needs to be fixed!"and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #13 November 27, 2001 YeahThe original idea was that we were self governing (as up jumpers that is).I am afraid that BOD members will wind up making votes in their interests and not the interests of the skydiving community.Oh wellbloo skiesramon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #14 November 27, 2001 I totally agree about the only local rules affecting up jumpers. But one of the things that was being worked on/was rumored is that only certified and liceneced coaches can jump with non licence holders. No solos, no jumping with your friends, only you paying for both slots and having to do coached jumps. If the BOD mandates this, then whats to stop them from mandating AAD's for all GM's, or pulling a rated members rating if they work at a non-GM DZ? Unlikely, but until they say exactly what they want to do.... I'm keeping my proxy.I'm not sure what to put here right now..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #15 November 27, 2001 Hmmm....seems we have outgrown our actual democracy......Dammitt...now you're scaring me....."and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpervali 2 #16 November 27, 2001 Thing is it doesn't stop with this one topic of regions. You may be giving the popular vote to the board for any topic they address. Would you send even your trusted friend out with your credit card as long as they only bought things they "KNOW" are what you need. If the B.O.D. can ask for this proxy so could anyone. Would you trust YOUR vote to someone without the title of board member? It's a blank check book with your name singed on all the checks. I have faith in my equipment because I control it. "Faith in people," well I'd call it more like hope that their of a good natured, but trust has to be earned.jumpervali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #17 November 27, 2001 Does this mean we don't vote for Board Members? I will tell you that a smart, elected board member will not make self-supporting decisions without knowing it will benefit the majority too. If he pisses his constituents off, someone will run against him and win. If the USPA begins dictating bs terms, it will loose membership and, in turn, operational capital. No money, no organization. Next thing you know, the Centers for Disease Control are working on classifying skydiving as a disease (because skydiving causes injury, and no shit, the CDC is presently trying to study injury as a disease) and then five minutes infront of a congressional inquiry without an organization to prevent it, a ban on skydiving is moving to the FAA. Could it happen? Maybe only in my twisted little mind. But hey, stranger things have occured.Point being, if this is a power grab for the benefit of a few, those few will be left kings without a kingdom. I personally will extend my level of trust to those who will vote on my behalf. (Then again, isn't that meeting being held in DC? Humph, right down the road. What time?)I begin to wonder why we don't have USPA-affilliated state associations. Am I wrong?mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpervali 2 #18 November 27, 2001 A person from each state with our proxies is a good idea. The 3 balances of power is the way to go, if that's the level it needs to go to.jumpervali Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #19 November 27, 2001 "USPA-affilliated state associations"That is a very interesting proposal.In God we trust....all others pay cash...."and I'm not easily impressed...Ooohh look...a blue car!" -Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Keith 0 #20 November 27, 2001 The BOD has never been very good at communication. They're NOT getting my proxy.Keith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #21 November 27, 2001 QuoteIf he pisses his constituents off, someone will run against him and win. Correct, but since BOD elections are not every year, they can make changes to the rules that could make them or their DZ lots of money and then get voted out. Examples of this are hosting events like boogies and forbiding something like the WFFC from getting the USPA insurance since its not a GMDZ. Or geting major events like the nationals, an event like this can bring upwards of 500 jumpers to a DZ for a week. Thats a lot of potential money sitting there waiting to be grabbed. Another thing that can be done is getting first dibs on the lobbying power of the USPA. If a BOD's DZ got shut down at the same time as a GM's I'd almost gaurentee that the BOD's DZ would get the lawyer and the lobbist before the GMDZ. Being a BOD does not meant that you are corrupt, but at also does not mean that you are not above corruption. Money and power do funny things to some people.......I'm not sure what to put here right now..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #22 November 27, 2001 Anyone who has gotten involved in more than a handful of DZs has probably dealt with some pretty crooked individuals.I can think of several I have been to and I have only been jumping 2 and a half years .bloo skiesramon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dutchboy 0 #23 November 27, 2001 I'm with Jumper Vali on this one. I have no intention of sending in this proxy that says they can do whatever they want including changing the way board members are elected. If they truly had just a single issue that they wanted to solve with these proxies they could put it on the proxy instead of asking for a "blank check".Threatening to waste OUR money to make another request if we don't just cooperate is total BS. As for not being a USPA member, you are screwed in this country if you aren't. Most DZ's are required to be USPA group members if they are on public airports, and they in turn require you to be a USPA member to jump there. I also like the clause on your license that says it is only valid while you are a USPA member.The Dutchboyhttp://www.geocities.com/ppolstra Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrumpySmurf 0 #24 November 27, 2001 I jump at SDC and I don't feel like a bill payer (now VISA, on the other hand, makes me feel like a bill payer) - just part of a larger than normal, quirky family :)As for all this politics stuff, got no interest in it - looked at the proxy form in Parachutist, went 'huh?', and promptly forgot about it - maybe if they, like, sent a free jump ticket for each proxy form sent in, then more people would pay attention ;) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallinWoman 1 #25 November 27, 2001 The way all of this was explained to me is that the BOD has the power to make rules and regulations with or without your proxy. They can change the rules about who can jump with a non-licensed jumper, for example, without your proxy. That is what the BOD is elected to do.They need to proxy votes to change the structure of the USPA and how the officials are elected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
