Spotting

[Aviatrr 0]

After a few recent conversations here on dz.com, I have to ask this question.. This is not directed at anybody specific, but more at everyone..
Who knows how to spot? Who doesn't? Who was never taught? Many jumpers do not ever learn, or excercise, this skill in this current age of GPS and green lights..
What do you consider spotting? Is it just looking out to see if you're over the DZ? Do you check the spot before exiting?
I learned to spot at a Cessna DZ......OSC for those of you that jump there.. We didn't have GPS.. The pilot told you when it was ok to open the door, and then you can leave at your leisure.. Too often I see people that just exit as soon as the green light goes on, regardless of position.. Once this caused 2 groups to get out over the wrong airport.. The pilot was new, saw an airport through the broken cloud layer, gave a cut and hit the light.....we were at the airport 3 miles away....oops.. The third group actually noticed that wasn't the right airport, and didn't exit.. The rest of us got a good laugh about that one..
Mike

[PalmettoTiger 1]

I've split my training between two DZs, one small and one big. At the big DZ, I mostly did tandems, but when I went on higher-level coached jumps the spot was explained to me, and since we were first out on occasion we did look down to confirm that we were over the right place. They explained which landmarks were useful (i.e. that football stadium is 1 mile from the DZ in X direction), but I gather the actual spot was done on GPS by the pilot, and of course the loads were turning, so any problems the previous load had were immediately relayed to the pilot.
At the smaller DZ, I did no spotting during AFF. (I was probably too nervous to get it right anyway.) On my graduation hop'n'pop, I spotted a Cessna load. It wasn't difficult b/c we didn't have to judge freefall drift, and winds were L&V, so I put us out right over the runway.
I gather that the question you're asking is "From nothing but a winds aloft report, could you spot your DZ's regular load without Hellen Kellering everyone?" The answer for me would be no, not now. But it is something I want to learn, and something that I'll make a priority when I start up again in the spring.

[flyinryan 0]

I am no expert in spotting but I would say it is definatly a trial and error process. I have been lucky to be able to jump at a smaller DZ where there was time to actually have people in the plane to help me out when I was learning. For example, on Cesna loads with myself and two Tandems, the Tandem masters would look over my shoulder and help me out. One of our pilots was a jumper himself so he was really helpful in learning how to spot because he would make sure you were not being too stupid. There is no real point to this post, just that I am greatfull to the skygods who helped me out.

[jfields 0]

Mike,
To be painfully honest, I have no clue. It was never taught at my home DZ. The closest I've gotten to "spotting" is the few times I've been first out the door, I've looked to check for other aircraft, but that is about it. I wouldn't begin to know when to have people start exiting the plane or know the duration of the jump run.
I plan to learn, but it is hard when nobody else seems to care.
Justin
My Homepage

[PhreeZone 20]

JUst last weekend we had the same sort of example. There were only 3 groups on the Plane. A big way freefly, my 2 way freefly and an 2 way RW. The big way got in the door after getting the Go when ready signal, and left. The uppers were at 40 and the ground winds were a steady 15-20 Gusts to 25. I looked at the group as they fell away, and then looked at the spot. I laughed so hard... they exited right on top of the DZ.... The spot was half way down the runway and they exited at the start of the run way. I held my 2 way for 15 seconds then climbed out. The only ones to make it back on that load were me and the instructor in the 2 way RW which came out after us that was opening high anyways.
Don't assume that just because the first group out said they spotted means they could see anything more then just seeing the ground.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[FallingILweenie 0]

I learned to spot while jumping the cessna on student status (about 3 years ago)...graduated to the turbine and have spotted twice since then......

[Slappie 9]

I know to look for the DZ and land marks. I also know to talk to jumpers that have just gotten in what the winds are like where you over the DZ when you got in the sadle. Personaly I've never had to spot, been out a few times first. I've always made it back even during the Class B Airspace restrictions. I feel I'm lucky and wouldn't know the first thing about trying to spot the plane and call a jump run. I understand the upper lower and ground winds stuff. Most of the time we rely on the "Green Light Fairy" to tell us when to jump My New Website with 24hr Chat

[PhreeZone 20]

I'll spot the Side door Beech or Westwind anytime, its the Casa that I refuse to spot. A tailgate totally screws up your spotting skills. I've found in order to get a good manual spot you need to lay on the gate, then get up, get to your slot in the group and exit. That just took 8 seconds to pull off. At 100 knts thats a lot of ground that could be covered. Plus if you spot something that big for just your self you are almost certian to screw the last people getting out. I'll let the Pilot spot the Casa's for me.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[diverdriver 6]

Why is going on a green light a cardinal sin? Yes, you should look down to make sure you are over the correct airport and Yes you should be looking for other traffic. But what's the difference in having a designated load jumpmaster spotting the load looking out and having a knowledgable pilot doing the same from up front? As long as the person doing it is knowledgable and competant I don't see a difference. I have over 2,000 hours flying jumpers, over 600 jumps, I am a IAD JM, and have done the Tandem Master training course but because I'm the pilot using a GPS you should ignore my spotting ability? I don't think that's right.
People think that because there's a GPS on board that the spot will automatically be perfect. How? The GPS only tells you where you are over the ground. The pilot has to drive the plane to where you need to be. Jumpers should be talking with the pilot and the pilot should be talking with the jumpers as to where the spot will be. But to say that just going on the green light is wrong is.....well....wrong.
When I fly the Twin Otter I expect people to be ready and paying attention to the Door and Exit lights. When the Door light comes on it will give approximately 20 seconds for someone to poke their head out and confirm the area they are over, look out for other traffic, and determine if they should start climbing out when the green light comes on. Jumper number two sitting next to jumper number one in the door should be watching for the Exit light to coordinate a timely climbout of the first group. But if you are the first jumper in the door holding up the group from climbing out you had better have a good explanation as to why. You had better have a good understanding of current wind conditions, freefall drift, and load organization to make that call. Jet A and AvGas are real expensive right now. If you make the plane do two passes all the time then you can expect your jump fees to go up. However, SAFETY is always number one. If there needs to be a go around then there WILL be a go around. Plain and simple. But lets be smart. There is nothing morally wrong with letting the pilot run the jumprun and climbout lights. Jumpers are never excused from looking out the door.
If you are the second or later group jumping and you see that the first group is not doing the things for safety that I have mentioned then you are definitely obligated to tell them about their shortcomings while still in the airplane. We certainly can not afford a mid air colision with another aircraft ever.
Chris Schindler
http://www.diverdriver.com
D-19012
ATP/CFII

[PhreeZone 20]

Very well said Chris!!!!!!
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[174fps 1]

Learning to spot was what got me over "DOOR" fear
On a cessna DZ we teach all students to spot
Though when I go to larger DZs with turbines I'm quite happy
to let the pilot spot with GPS.
174fps

[PLFKING 4]

I learned at a one-Cessna DZ, and we started with "helping" spot on load 5.....one of the requirements before we could get off student status was to successfully spot two loads completely on our own, and everyone on the plane had to make it back. Now I jump mostly at a TWO-Cessna DZ (moving up in the world !) and still get to spot about every other load....I enjoy it ! (and haven't "Helen Keller-ed" anyone yet.....)

Don

[flyhi 24]

Quote

I'll spot the Side door Beech or Westwind anytime, its the Casa that I refuse to spot.

Went to a three day, Casa boogie. Reading from the Book of Bottom Lines, 14 jumps, 10 out. Five on one day.
As a diver, I have never checked the spot and I dare anyone who is a diver, and wants to do it again, to say they have. Be honest now.
There is a lot of faith involved. You just can't get locked in to "Get-home-itis". It's killed more pilots than mechanical failures and can do the same stuff to skydivers.
flyhi

[mountainman 0]

Laura and I did most of our training jumps from a C-182. From jump 6 or so, we had to do all the spotting. I have spotted a lot and think that I could do a good job of spotting for something like a Twin Bo or smaller. I have a pretty good handle on when to get out due to the wind direction/speed.
However, I give all credit to Jonny at Richmond. He is the one who kept helping us and gave a go-around when it was needed.
If you can't spot......LEARN!!! --------------
JumpinDuo.com is here!!!

[skybytch 273]

I learned to spot early and I spotted often and well (only put part of a load off the airport once...), but then again I started jumping at a one Cessna DZ in the days before GPS. That, the fact that I couldn't afford a square reserve and that I threw many a first jumper out on static line meant that I learned to spot good.
Haven't really spotted once since I moved to Perris, but I do watch other loads to see where they get out and if they make it back, I look down to make sure I'm likely to make it back and I have been known to wait for the go around if I'm doing a solo (which usually put me out just before the students/tandems who are waiting for the go around anyway).
pull and flare,
lisa

[chicagoskydiver 0]

I've been taught how to spot, but haven't practiced it much and usually check the spot only if I'm first out, which I really should briefly check it while waiting for separation on each exit. I was taught that to spot properly, you need to know these things ahead of time - direction and location of jump run, and speed and direction of the upper winds. It's not as simple as getting out over the airport. Depending on what the upper winds are doing, getting out directly over the airport could cause you to land out!
Hackey

[wildblue 7]

On the Casa, I'll blindly follow the pilot. Green light = go. I trust our Casa captains enough that he's going to give us a good spot. I will start looking on the red light for traffic and whatnot, and to make sure we're lined up well. They've never failed me yet. The only time that does fail, is when you're near the end of the load, and the first group took too long, or there's a lot of small groups, or people are putting too much time in-between. You kinda get a sense of that, and when it's your turn, you look down to make sure it hasn't gotten too long - or you tap someone in the group ahead of you that you trust, and say "Hey, look down when you guys get up there, I think we're gonna be way out" Usually works.
The other plane I'm usually leaving is a Westwind. When the pilot calls door, I lean out and start looking. Then he'll usually say "Go when you're ready" which means "We're close, but I can't see down, you look out, see if we need a course correction (we usually don't) and leave at the proper time" "Go when you'r ready" is just a lot easier to say.
I think it's funny as hell when people leave right after "Door!"
flyhi - I'm guessing at the Casa boogie, there were a lot of people who hadn't jumped a Casa before. Those things are hauling a** on jumprun, and you don't need to the ton of time most people are used to putting between groups. The last time I was in our Casa, I remember seeing a sign on the wall that had wind speeds and time you should put between groups for each - because people have a habit of putting too much time between them.
I ain't happy, I'm feeling glad
I got sunshine, in a bag

[mnischalke 0]

Download the new SIM from the USPA. It has great info on spotting. Also, sit in on a Cat F class if you can get a chance.
mike

[jfields 0]

On a spotting-related note....
I was recently on a load where I would be in the first group out the door. We were doing a 3-way tube/donut dive. We talked on the plane to one of the experienced video guys that would be near the door. He was going to let us know when to exit, after we'd opened the door and gotten into position.
All was going well. We got into position quickly and were waiting for the camera flyer to give us the signal. We heard "go" and rolled out the door. The only problem was that it had been someone in the front of the plane yelling.
None of the three of us made it back to the DZ, because we had gone too early, even though we'd heard what we thought was our cue. We found out that the guy that yelled was one of the tandem masters. That pissed us off. If it had been a student or something, that would be one thing. But a TM should know better than to do that. He wasn't anywhere near the door and didn't have a clue where the plane was when he yelled.
I can understand people being impatient if a group in the middle of the jump run chokes in the door, but that wasn't the case. This jump turned out to be the farthest out I've landed. It could have easily landed one of the three of us in the trees.
Thoughts on what to do, or how to avoid this type of situation in the future? I know part of that is to learn to spot for myself. But other than that...
Justin
My Homepage

[BikerBabe 0]

A bunch of folks from my home DZ (Cessna 182's) went to a boogie at a DZ with a plane without GPS. Now, this boogie was located relatively close to one of the largest DZ's in the country, and a lot of folks from that DZ were at the boogie. This exact same conversation came up several times, since about 2 out of 5 loads landed out on the first day. By the end of the first day, we were making sure to be the first group out of whatever load we were on, so one of us could spot the load.
I was taught how to skydive and JM by the Air Force, and spotting was essential. Of course, this was pre-GPS. We were not only told and shown how to spot, but we had to throw wind drift indicators from 3000 ft off the first load of the day to get the perfect spot. When you're putting out students whose first jumps are unassisted free falls with no talk-down under canopy, the spot had to be perfect. I'm so thankful that I retained that skill! I'm not saying that all my spots are perfect, but the basic knowledge has helped a lot.
Back to the boogie story...some of the folks from the large GPS DZ were complaining about the plane not having GPS, along the lines of, "they could spend $200 and go buy a Garmin, and we wouldn't have all these problems landing out."
IMHO, that attitude is 180º from what it should be. Maybe they should learn how to spot, and then we wouldn't have all those problems of landing out. Because I'd be willing to bet that there are a heck of a lot more DZ's out there without GPS then those that have it.
Blue Skies!

[freeflir29 0]

I only have faith in the pilot if I know and trust him. Otherwise, I'm spotting for myself. As far as the Casa spotting goes. If you want to spot it that bad, yes you have to look ahead of the plane to make sure you are going to overfly your spot. Or you can do like the military and pic 1 minute and/or 30 sec spots. (Please don't give static line jump commands...LMAO) Then you can stand up and pick your final spot over the edge of the tailgate. What's difficult?
At boogies......I skydive....screw the spot! I'll land out every time if it means I have better skydives. Land out....big deal.....what's difficult?
Que hermana pinocha gratis?-Clay

[Jabeln79 0]

At my Dropzone Spotting was partially taught. they went over it with us out of a c-182 a couple times during student status and never really made sure we knew how to do it.. I feel i now can spot pretty well out of a cesna. im still working out of the king air.. sometimes when i go up and sit by the door i ask the spotter if its all right if i spot and he checks it for me. i usually do pretty good. So its all about if you want to spot or not.. i feel that anyone with a license should be able to spot out of whatever plan they usually jump out of.. its part of skydiving..

[PhreeZone 20]

The problem with just standing on the gate and looking out is, you cant tell the path that the pilot is flying towards.... only what has gone past. Plus our casa keeps climbing until the first group leaves most of the time so you are standing on an incline. If you look "straight" down you are actually looking at a backwards angle, or DEEP spot. To see the current spot you need to look UNDER the plane at what is currently under you. Standerd seperation out of a Casa is 4-5 seconds, I've heard a skyvan is 5-7 and a Cessna 182 is 10 seconds. Big difference between taking a 10 second spot in a Casa or a Cessna.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[freeflir29 0]

"The problem with just standing on the gate and looking out is, you cant tell the path that the pilot is flying towards.... "
Thats why you have to know where you are by landmarks. You look ahead of the plain to get the big picture and then you should be able to "Spot in Detail" on the last mile of the run standing up. That's also where the 30 sec and or 1 minute marks come in handy. Let's you know you are on the right course before it's too late.
Que hermana pinocha gratis?-Clay

[PhreeZone 20]

That might work in Georgia, but in the middle of nothing but corn and bean fields in Ohio.... not such a good idea. We freguently change Jump run angle durning the day so if you were basing it on a pervious spot, your probally not going to hit the DZ......
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work