Safety note - pulling too high

[billvon 2,990]

This weekend me and another jumper on an 8-way came very close to a collision with a high canopy during breakoff. Our cameraman saw him during the dive and dropped on level to try to tell us, but as he had done that before for artistic reasons we didn't notice anything unusual - and he wasn't pointing or waving much. As I turned to track I saw a canopy below me and in front of me, and I veered about 30 degrees to the right to avoid him. I passed him at about 3000 feet and pulled at 2500. Another jumper from our 8-way passed him on the other side.

Afterwards someone who knew the jumper went over to talk to him. This jumper had a tendency of pulling high, and had apparently pulled high on the previous load (which had exited about 5 minutes before us.)

Lessons here:

- Keep your eyes open on jump run and look for high canopies. I can't really do that from my exit slot (inside front) but our cameraman and front float are in a good position to do that.

- Be aware in freefall. We concentrate pretty hard on 8-way while we're in the dive, but every once in a while I have a free half second while I'm waiting for, say, the 3-ways in the 8 block to complete, and I could be looking a little more.

- Do NOT open high unless you've talked about your plan with manifest/the organizer/the load. At most multiple-aircraft DZ's the opening altitudes are between 2000 and 3000 feet. No problem opening higher than that, but you do have to let other people know so they can plan for safe separation.

[skydiverek 63]

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At most multiple-aircraft DZ's the opening altitudes are between 2000 and 3000 feet.

Does the opening altitude mean the PC RELEASE altitude, or FULLY OPEN CANOPY altitude? Big difference ( + - 1000 ft)...

[billvon 2,990]

>Does the opening altitude mean the PC RELEASE altitude . . .

Generally it means pull altitude.

[ozzy13 0]

So you are telling me that everyone at your DZ is pulling at 3000 - 2000 feet. I whave off at 3500 and pull and I am under canopy by 2200- 2500 .I think 2000 is a little low for me . If I pulled at 2000 I wouldnt be under canopy till 1000 and that would not leave any room for error .No thanks

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[billvon 2,990]

> So you are telling me that everyone at your DZ is pulling at 3000 - 2000 feet.

No, I'm telling you that at least one jumper did not and almost killed me this weekend. Fortunately, most people at Perris _do_ pull at those altitudes (or take precautions, like doing a hop and pop at 6000 or exiting in the CRW area.)

[Ironmanjay 0]

Glad your ok and learned something.....how come you didnt go talk to the person under the canopy to let him know what he did wrong?

[quade 4]

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Glad your ok and learned something.....how come you didnt go talk to the person under the canopy to let him know what he did wrong?

If you assume that this could happen at -Perris- and all the people involved not know about it, then you're mistaken.

I wasn't even on the load and I knew about it.

Let me assure you that words were spoken.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,990]

>how come you didnt go talk to the person under the canopy to let
>him know what he did wrong?

I didn't know him very well. Often I find it better when someone who the jumper knows and respects does the talking. I think it was Dave S who went over to talk to him.

[Ironmanjay 0]

If you assume that this could happen at -Perris- and all the people involved not know about it, then you're mistaken.

I wasn't even on the load and I knew about it.

Let me assure you that words were spoken.

[pilotdave 0]

Isn't that more of a problem of loads dumping on top of each other than just pulling high? What if someone had a premature deployment on the previous load? You'd run into the same thing... which is why we always talk about the importance of horizontal separation vs. vertical separation after breakoff. Running two jumpruns over the same spot 5 minutes apart seems to rely on vertical separation, doesn't it?

Dave

[billvon 2,990]

>Running two jumpruns over the same spot 5 minutes apart seems to
>rely on vertical separation, doesn't it?

At Perris, when jumpruns are that closely stacked, the second jump run is displaced, usually about half a mile to the west. That works to avoid the odd premature deployment, but doesn't work if a jumper deploys at say 5000 feet and flies back into the main jump run.

[KathleenL 0]

What do you do about students at your dz they break off and pull high? I am just off of AFF as you can see from my profile. I do make it a point to tell everyone on the load that I am going to clear and pull at 4000ft. And of course I am usually last out of the plane except for tandems.

[pilotdave 0]

Ok, so what is the safe direction to fly after a high/premature deployment with a load behind you? Toward the landing area?

I just think telling people to pull lower isn't the ideal solution to the problem. People will pull high or have premature deployments. Lots of swoopers like to pull at 4500 or higher these days. Were mistakes made other than one jumper pulling higher than you expected (or higher than the local rules allow)? Or, are there other solutions to the same problem that don't require people to pull lower than they're comfortable with?

Dave

[billvon 2,990]

>I just think telling people to pull lower isn't the ideal solution to the
>problem.

I'm not telling anyone to pull lower. There is no problem with pulling high as long as you do it in the right place (say, on a hop and pop or a CRW pass.)

>People will pull high or have premature deployments. Lots of swoopers like
>to pull at 4500 or higher these days.

And that's absolutely fine! At Perris, that means getting out at 6000 feet and going for the swoop pond; the DZ will give you your own pass. If you exit on the east side of the DZ that means you don't conflict with either freefallers opening at between 2000 and 3000 feet, or the canopy pattern for the main area.

The problems arise when a jumper wants to do all that AND open and land with everyone else without thinking about it. It's not hard to accommodate everyone's needs, but it is important (I think) to realize that not all forms of skydiving can be accommodated in exactly the same place and time without any additional thought or effort.

[ozzy13 0]

I still say that 2000 to 3000 is low . I understand If someone opens at lets say 6000 and doesn't say anything ,That could be a problem. But to say normal opening Alt is 2-3 k Thats low to me .Then again what do I know .Low jump count an all . I have bin yelled at a couple of time opening at that hight at different DZ's . I guess Parris is different

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[billvon 2,990]

> I still say that 2000 to 3000 is low . . .

And again, that's fine. Open at any altitude you like. Just talk to manifest/the organizer/the load to make sure that your opening altitude will work with the DZ's plan for separation.

[speedy 0]

From your OP...

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Afterwards someone who knew the jumper went over to talk to him. This jumper had a tendency of pulling high, and had apparently pulled high on the previous load (which had exited about 5 minutes before us.)

If the jumper had a tendency to pull high and this was known, maybe someone should have talked to him before and not afterwards.

I had to read much more than your OP before I could understand why you were complaining. Not all DZ's operate like Perris.
Was the jumper aware that when pulling high he must notify manifest? Did he pull high as planned or did he have a problem where he decided pulling high was the best option ? Is someone on the ground with radio contact with the aircraft watching for premeture deployments ?

Also I can do a hop n pop from 13,000 ft and be on the ground in under 5 mins I am a bit dizzy afterwards though

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

Bill... isn't their a sign by manifest at Perris that says "No one under canopy above 3500 ft"... or am I having a flash back to many many years ago?


Anyway, good point to bring up. As I'm sure you know and hopefully most will see, a lot of this "depends", but the key factor is COMMUNICATION.

At first, when I read your post and you said you passed this person at 3K and you pulled at 2.5K, I didn't think it was all that bad... until I re-read the part about this high canopy had been from the PREVIOUS LOAD... thus, they were out there, up high, for awhile.


Anyway... anyway... I hate to muddy the waters anymore, but if I find myself in freefall with a problem that I'd rather sort out under canopy RIGHT NOW, I doubt I'm going to cruise on down to 3K and pull rather then pull higher and deal with the rest later. If I did that, all going better after getting saddled, I'd like to think I'd be head's up enough to stay out from under the prevailing jump run until I got down lower and could work my way back into the pattern. I guess my point is, I'd hate to see someone with some sort of a problem not pull until down to 3K because they were afraid of pulling high and give up altitude that they could have used.

It doesn't sound like this was a factor in your recent experience though.

[billvon 2,990]

>Anyway... anyway... I hate to muddy the waters anymore, but if I find
>myself in freefall with a problem that I'd rather sort out under canopy
>RIGHT NOW, I doubt I'm going to cruise on down to 3K and pull rather
>then pull higher and deal with the rest later.

Of course. And if you get a premature during freefall, same issue (although in both cases flying away from the jump run area would be wise.) Hopefully events like this are rare.

[Canuck 0]

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At most multiple-aircraft DZ's the opening altitudes are between 2000 and 3000 feet.

Pulling at 2000 feet is stupid. It was, perhaps, less stupid when canopies were big and opened faster, and with a spinning mal you had time to sort shit out. Lots of people are calling for changes with respect to landing patterns/areas/turns etc. How about bringing minimum deployment altitudes up a little so those of us that want to pull at 3500 feet, or *gasp* maybe even 4000 feet don't require a seperate pass, or get told we can't pull that high unless we're doing a hop n pop. Maybe that extra bit of canopy time would also help to sort out some of the shit in the pattern and landing area too.

Canuck

[wightout 0]

Thanks for saying that.

To borrow a line from Squeak...MY LIFE ROCKS!! HOW'S YOURS??!!!

[Babi 0]

I started the theme on different rules at different DZs in my thread "What would you do", and hope I don't sound boring, but I think it would really be a good idea that each DZ would publish their rules. To start with they could include those rules in their webpage.

As for telling everybody that a person is going to open high, we know that this does not always happen. With so many canopy collisions lately some serious new rules should be set out.

[dorbie 0]

Define high? Just how much separation was there between loads? Are you really saying anything over 3k at Perris manifest should be informed not just others on your load? I hear guys say they're pulling at 4.5k or higher all the time at Perris as they board and I'm certain they haven't informed manifest, I do it myself occasionally. I guess that needs to be disseminated more widely than this forum.

This is slightly troubling. One could imagine pulling low to be equally culpable.

[dorbie 0]

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I started the theme on different rules at different DZs in my thread "What would you do", and hope I don't sound boring, but I think it would really be a good idea that each DZ would publish their rules. To start with they could include those rules in their webpage.

As for telling everybody that a person is going to open high, we know that this does not always happen. With so many canopy collisions lately some serious new rules should be set out.

The first thing you should do at any new DZ is ask for a safety briefing. I did when I arrived at Perris, this was never mentioned. My rule of thumb has been (based on advice at various DZs), jumpers on your load should know your pull altitude, and that anything over 6k is getting unusual without special arrangements. It turns out I was wrong along with many other jumpers if I take what I'm reading at face value.

[strop45 0]

What about spotting? Did you or someone talk to the spotter?

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein