A Favor for a Friend - please advise

[Michele 1]

Hi, all.
I received this in my pm's the other day. She is a poster on these boards (you all know her), and we have been corresponding regularly for the last several months. She sent this to me, and I thought I'd pass it on for your help, support and comments (she o.k.'d it). She has just under 100 jumps, and she jumps a Spectre with a slow opening pack style. She has just moved her decision altitude from 2500 to 2000, and is still very nervous about that. She asked me to post because she didn't want any bad publicity from her DZ.
Her pm reads in part:

Quote

"So, for the last jump of the day, I decide to do a chick jump, a five way. Our planned break-off was 4500, turn and track and pull at 3500. We were a bit low breaking off, 4200, but once we did break off, one of the jumpers just grabbed me and spun me around for 1200-1300 ft. She finally let go of me at about 3000.
(Remember, my canopy takes 1000ft to open, and my new decision altitude is 2000 ft. )
When she let me go, I had no idea where the other four jumpers were, including the video guy who deploys from the middle of the formation. I could not look for them, because I was already uncomfortable with how low I was. I admit, I was terrified. I was under an open canopy by 1900, a steerable canopy at 1700 (I had bad line twists - bad body position?). I looked up to see a freebag floating by, and the video guy was under his reserve (found out later that it wasn't my fault, but still!).
After I landed, I went over to her. I was sooooooo pissed off, and yelled at her. I was so scared, and what she did felt so unsafe. You know what? She got mad at me when I got mad at her. She accused me of being "high strung" and "not wanting anyone to have any fun". She literally started yelling at me!!!!. BTW, she is an AFF instructor here........"

Please give comments and advice.
Thanks all.
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[matttrudeau 0]

You pull when you want to pull. There is no way you should put up with anyone interfering with that. If they don't listen, don't jump with them anymore. Nobody should accuse someone else that their "not having enough fun." It's none of their business. Skydiving is hard enough just worrying about yourself. Tell this person how you feel and if they don't understand, don't jump with them.

[Albatross 0]

Agreed your pull altitude is you decision and yours alone. If you don't like the altitude on a jump the others should be willing to honor that as long as it is not higher than the accepted deployment altitude at your DZ. Makeing you go low is just asking for trouble I mean what do they know about your canopy and how it behaves. Be safe control your own destiny.
God bless us and God Bless America
Albatross

[harro 0]

I wouldnt jump with them.
I plan everything on my dives. Sometimes funny stuff happens, but it happens at height!
Damm right dangerous!
CI might be interested!
Freemind, freesky, freebeer, freefly, freesex

[TheMarshMan1 0]

Personally, having someone do something like that to me would REALLY piss me off. I think that she (the AFF instructor) was way out of line even doing that, let alone getting mad about the fact that she was confronted about it. The whole point of breaking off was to get seperated to pull, right? So what in the hell would posess someone to screw with you at that low of an altitude? You did the right thing to confront her about it. If someone violates your personal feeling of safety, then you should do just that, confront them. If you want my opionion, I would: a.) Tell her to @#$ off and not jump with her again, and b.) suggest that maybe she get a little "talking to" from maybe the DZO or an S&TA or someone like that....

[Jabeln79 0]

Safety is the number one concern for any skydive....Everyone has a different comfort level.which should be respected you dont plan a break off altitude for no reason you do so every one knows stop the dive turn track and pull at a safe and comfy alti.. it makes everyone have a better time and lets us all enjoy the sport....always play safe...

[FallingMarc 0]

I'd be pissed if that happened to me too. Sure, have your fun, but when it's time to save your ass, that's the only thing you should have to think about, not someone else screwing with you.
Of course, I'm apparently paranoid about breakoffs... I tend to turn and track 500 feet higher than planned every time...

[apoil 0]

If someone did that to me, I wouldn't have much to say about it.
I'd simply beat the living crap out of them.
That's not funny to do to someone with a lot of experience, but folks with 100 jumps are uncomfortable sucking it that low, especially if it's not their personal choice.
No compromise. It was dangerously unsafe.

[skreamer 1]

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I tend to turn and track 500 feet higher than planned every time...

Thats not safe either, when I turn and start tracking I like to look around and see where everybody else is. I don't want to have to worry about someone who could be directly above me. If you're not happy with the break-off altitude then get everybody else to break off 500 feet higher, and then YOU stick to that.
/s
PS I'm surprized the camera flyer wasn't also pissed off with that AFF instructor chick.

[Fab 0]

An instructor should have known better..Maybe if she reads the posts here now and then she might learn a lesson here. If she wants to have fun why should she force others into doing things they don't want just because it pleases her (selvish person!)..She sounds like a b***h.
Probably is too.
I take it she doesn't talk about this at her DZ because she doesn't want bad publicity. I think however that the other person sure is talking about it behind her back putting her in bad daylight.
Just wondering...when she grabbed her to play..did she signal a waveoff to let her know that she should release her?

[Aviatrr 0]

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Please give comments and advice.

The DZO needs to be advised of this, so that the person in question is either straightened out or fired.. If somebody will do something careless like that with a low timer, I'm sure she will do something stupid with a student as well..
That was undoubtedly an incredibly stupid stunt, and the low time jumper had every right in the world to be extremely pissed off, and to even kick the living shit out of the instructor, IMHO.. That's what I would've done..
I've had somebody do something similar to me once.. As we went through 2.5, I pulled out my pilot chute and showed it to him......he was gone before I knew it..
Mike

[ramon 0]

Taking a newbie/less experineced jumper low is kinda uncool.
Rodeoing them to about 6k is allright if you think they might have fun.
Scaring someone intentionally is immature. If they are an AFF instructor then they are really uncool and obviously have an attitude about owning up to their mistakes .
This sport has a way of taking people out that fail to be humble and respect it.
just my 2 cents
ramon

[freeflir29 0]

No doubt....an AFF instructor should know better than to screw around with a low timer. Break off is break off. Period. That altitude was still really high, in her opinion I'm sure, but when it bites into your comfort envelope bad things can really start to snowball. When it's time to leave you leave! If that means punching them in the face or dumping right in front of them.....Do it!
"There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[Michele 1]

Morning, all.
Skreamer, you asked if the camera flier was pissed. Turns out he was told that it was going to happen. Se sent me this answer: "She worried about his safety, made sure he knew it was going to happen, just not mine!"
And Fab, you asked: Just wondering...when she grabbed her to play..did she signal a waveoff to let her know that she should release her?
Her response was: "Someone asked if I waved off as she was playing...YES! I waved off and tried to shake my wrists free of her grip." She also said that she shook her arms, and thought about hitting her, but worried about body position and if that was going to make her go lower.
Personally, you and I think alike - if that had happened to me, the person would've been eating teeth, y'know?
Fab, as to putting people in a bad light, I am not sure I understand that comment. I posted her problem so she could get some support from people other than me, because I am not as experienced as you guys. I know what I would have done, but I don't know what the "right thing" would have been. I told her that the DZO and/or ST&A needed to be told about that right away, but I am still very new in the sport, and my advice is not the most valid. As to talking behind her back, I am sorry you seem to feel that I would do that.
Anyway, thanks for the responses - they seem to have helped her out.
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[Merrick 0]

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"As to talking behind her back, I am sorry you seem to feel that I would do that. "

I think what Fab was saying was that the AFF JM was probably talking behind the jumper's back... making them sound like they're stupid for being upset or giving people the impression that she's no fun to jump with. The sort of thing that happens when only one side of the story is told.
I've heard of other people doing this, but it was done to others with 1000's of jumps, so they weren't really dipping into their comfort zone.... if you were pulled past your comfort area, the JM crossed the line... this should NEVER be done with a low-timer, or anyone that's not comfortable going low.... I agree with Mike, if someone were to do this to me, I would pull my pilot-chute out & shove it in their face.... then, I'd confront them on the ground. If they got all pissy (like in this situation) I would make sure that the DZO & S&TA hear about it!
"Pammi's Hemp/Skydiving Jewelry"

[Michele 1]

Morning, Merrick

Quote

I think what Fab was saying was that the AFF JM was probably
talking behind the jumper's back... making them sound like they're
stupid for being upset or giving people the impression that she's no
fun to jump with. The sort of thing that happens when only one side
of the story is told.

Thanks for clearing that up. Rereading his comment, that does sound like what he meant.
Geesh, I need another cup of coffee!
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[SpeedRacer 1]

lowtimers or not, breakoff for a 5-way is supposed to be at 4k. USPA has this rule for a reason.Grabbing someone's wrists to spin them around is not breaking off.
Speed Racer
The problem with the world is that everyone is a few drinks behind
-Bogart

[PhreeZone 20]

Uh... never been on a 4 or 5 way with some old time jumpers that give you a really strange look when you question them breaking at 3 then huh? They think breaking at 2.5 is ok as long as you don't have one of those new fangled "square" canopies. I got really jumpy as we went through 3.5 then at 2.7 I took off like a bat out of hell. (Gotta love looking down on the formation as you track away)
Anyone see the video of Airspeed doing rodeos after their working time is up during some of thier training jumps? Funniest thing I had seen skydiving related was when they tried to put one rodeo on top of the other one then tracked away.... it was a total zoo.
A rainy day at the DZ is better then a Sunny day at work

[Grogs 0]

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lowtimers or not, breakoff for a 5-way is supposed to be at 4k. USPA has this rule for a reason.Grabbing someone's wrists to spin them around is not breaking off.

Actually, 4k is for groups of 6 or larger. 3500 for smaller groups. Of course, those are the minimums, so you can always plan to break higher.
I can feel sympathize for your friend though Michelle. I too jump a slow opening 1000ft-ish canopy (Cobalt) and I don't like to throw out below 3k if I can help it. I am a little confused as to why she would raise her decision altitude *just* because the canopy was a slow opener. It seems like that would be a good reason to not raise it. Anyway, that aside, I definitely be worried. We've got a guy at the DZ who says 'At pull altitude, if you're still on me, I'll show you a pilot chute. It might not be mine, but I'm going to show you a damn pilot chute!' As for the JM's attitude, I'd have to say it was pretty piss poor. It's not like she's harassing you while you're trying to take a shot in basketball. We're talking about skydiving and all the potentially disasterous consequences for stupidity. We all have out comfort level, and as an AFF-I, she should be well aware of that. For her to not at least acknowledge she had gone beyond what your friend considered safe is pretty shameful.

[rgoper 0]

this is a most unfortunate incident, one which could have caused a chain of further unsavory incidents. plan your dive, dive your plan! NEVER jump with someone your not comfortable with, or with people who have reputations for pulling shit like this. i'm glad the jumper wasn't injured, but if someone pulled this stunt on me, my reaction would have been negative, and physical, directly after landing, and getting out of my gear! an aff jumpmaster certainly should have known better, sounds like an incident for the dzo, and s&ta to review.
Blue Skies:
Richard
Gravity Is My Friend

[jumpervali 2]

You would be surprised how many times up jumpers do this. As an AFF instructor she has seen plenty of personal contact and pilotchutes in her face working with students, so dumping in place was an option. She should, as any jumper should understand that most folks take pull time dead serious. I would say she gets her point and won't do it again.
play nice
jumpervali AFF-I-01

[chickenhawk420 0]

JEEZE! Its about personal safety aswell as others safety (lucky there were no collisions as you couldn't tell where everyone was), fun is fun but not when you intefere like that. I don't think anyone would have had a second thought if you had kicked the shit out of her, i would have. And shes a goddamn instructor, hope i don't ever get someone doing that shit to me, DZO needs to be told (don't make it a personal but remeber shes responsible for students lives). Anyway hope don't sound preechy (bear in mind ive only jumped twice) but thats just my reaction. Do what your comfortable with (and if you end up stringing the B****H up then nevermind)

[Fab 0]

hello michelle,
You must forgive my poor english. It's not my native language but what I meant to say was exactly what Merrick explained to you.
You said in your post : "She asked me to post because she didn't want any bad publicity from her DZ."..I understood from that, that she wasn't talking about it at her DZ and I totally agree with your advice to tell the DZO and/or ST&A about it.
Just wanted to say this myself although I'm eternally grateful Merrick helped me out here :)...

[cameramonkey 0]

A surprise rodeo or fruit-loop is one thing, but not one that takes 1000 feet or more. Bad form... especially for an AFFI

[Michele 1]

Hi, Guys!
Fab, first, I doubt it was your english - more likely it was my lack of coffee. Cloudy head and lack of coffee someetimes makes me misunderstand something. I went back and re-read it, and it was exactly clear after Merrick pointed it out. And thanks for clearing it up yourself. That, and you, are appreciated.
She has asked me to make one final post on this thread for everyone:

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Would you please point out to people that I coud not pull? She had a death grip on both my arms, which were fully extended due to the spin. If I had been able to reach a pilot chute (hers OR mine), I would have pulled.
And also, say thank you to everyone for their advice and their help.

Also, and this is from me to you all, thank you for your help, and putting up with an akward situation, this posting from anonimity. If she could have posted, she would have. And rather than have her go with only my limited experience advice, this was the only situation we could come up with to get your input.
Again, thanks, everyone - you helped her out, and taught me a thing or two in the process!
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~