Fear Of Flying

[Zennie 0]

My wife & I are supposed to be going on a trip to San Francisco this week and we're both more than a little concerned about takingthe flights there & back.
I know this sounds totally stupid coming from a person who doesn't think twice about jumping out at 14K, but I honestly feel safer doing that than flying a commercial airliner these days. Particulary when:
1) I come to find out that 90% of all checked baggage does not go through an explosives screen.
2) Flight crews stationed at Bush Intercontinental Airport (where we are leaving and returning) are concerned about lax security.
3) There are now "credible" threats of some new terrorist activity somewhere somehow this week.
I'm really this close to just cancelling the trip and driving to New Orleans or San Antonio.
So whatcha all think? Are we geting way too worked up or would you do the same thing?
Just coo-rious.
"Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control. Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper."

[Jabeln79 0]

You have every right to be concerend especially with all the reports of terrorist acts more likely to happen this week than before.. But this may be just my opinion but we have to continue about our normal lives our else we hae let terrorism win. I would be more worried about chemical terrorism alot more than another hijacked airplane. Just my thought s
Joe

[lazerq3 0]

Heres my take on the whole flying thing, I dont mean to sound harsh so I hope not to offend anyone but hijacking has been going on forever, and hijacking will continue to go on. When and where, nobody knows. But to stop flying because of all this I think isnt the answer. Millions of people die from car crashes every year but do we stop driving? And what about palne crashes, I dont have the stats but I'll bet the odds of being in a plane crash are better that being hijacked, and even then the odds of being in a crash are small. I know this sounds harsh but hey thats just the way it is. If I had plans to fly you bet your ass I'm going. This whole thing has put a struggle on everyone but I'm not going to let it slow my life down and be scared for the rest of it. But when it all comes down ,you should do what you feel comfortable with!!
And while were on the topic this whole anthrax thing is getting way outa proportion I think. I mean come on people we've had how many deaths from this shit? Like 2 or 4. Hell what abotu the millions diagnosed with cancer /yr, or all the people that die from the Flu/yr. Hell give me anthrax anyday at least I'll have a good chance to live. There are people with cancer that have no hope and other types of diseases. Yes I understand inhalent anthrax is deadly if not caught right away but it is EXTREMELy rare (do the reading) Intestinal anthrax has only a 50% death rate and thats only if you dont get treated after you feel the simtums and cutaneous anthrax is only less than 20% death rate, and you'd have to be an idoit to get that and not notice anything .again do the reading. I know you may say well were is your facts on this info. Again I say look around the info is all over the internet and I've done my fare share of reading.
I know it going to be a long raod for some who have delt with the WTC event head on and for them I say good luck adn wish the best for thier futures but for the rest of us continue on with your lives the best you can, and dont live the remainder of it in fear or afraid.
Well I've babled enough with. The opinons expressed here are just that my opinions. others will vary
jason

[nimbus 0]

Hi Zennie,
I just got home to Australia from 2 weeks in New York. Before I boarded my plane in Melbourne I almost worked myself into a state of panic and almost didn't get on the plane. But the security at Tullamarine (Melbourne's airport) was extremely noticable and, I thought, vigilant. Sniffer dogs at the check in counter, calling out of passengers for LA (the Qantas route I was on was New York via LA) and checking their baggage while in the check in queue, 2 lots of x-ray machines and metal detectors and then a full (I mean completely full) check of carry on luggage before boarding the plane. This calmed my nerves. In the US, going from LA to NYC I was concerned at the lack of security at LA. Just an x-ray/metal detecting check and a lady who asked me to take a sip from my water bottle. On the way back though the security seemed more vigilant. From JFK airport to LA, 2 xray machines & a good look at the passport picture, and from LA back to Melbourne also a thorough look at the passport picture, 2 xray machine & metal detector checks and also at the very point of going down the passage into the plane people (mainly men I noticed) were pulled aside and given a metal detector and sort of body search. The people at the x-ray machines seemed to be really looking at what was inside the bags.
I also felt safe as Qantas has a really good safety record, and I don't mind paying a bit more to feel better.
I thought it a bit strange though, that the security at Melbourne airport was the highest of all the airports I went through!
My vegetarian meal was pretty scary! (mmm... vegetable patties....)
It's a hard decision to make though, have a good trip whatever you decide.
Larissa

[AggieDave 6]

Zennie, IMHO you should continue with your plans. What are the chances that something is going to happen? If anything (knock on wood) you'll be in a car wreck on the way to the airport. Better chances still that the meal you have on your flight will taste like ass. If we stop our normal lives because of what some crazy people did, then they won. That is the point with this war, we can not stop. That is not to say that we should have a totally lax attitude towards security, no, anyone who knows me will tell you that I tend to lean towards the extreme side when it comes to security (I'm a CHL). However, we must not let it control our lives to the point of stopping them. A very wise man once said "FIDO!" (If you don't know what it means: "F*** It Drive On")
Blue Skies, Good Luck and Safe Journeys.
AggieDave '02
-------------
Blue Skies and Gig'em Ags!
BTHO t.u.

[BenW 0]

Zennie,
If you won't fly then the terrorists have won! Let them coerce you like this and they'll do it again and again. We've had years of bombings here in the UK by Irish Terror Groups, but you can't let it affect the way you want to live your life.
I'm flying from the UK to Florida with my girlfriend at Christmas for her to do her AFF. Friends have said they wouldn't fly etc. I'm not going to let them affect my life in that huge a way. As Clay has said before (although in a different situation) " Better to live one minute as a free Man. Or something along those lines.
If only most people weren't yellow bellied w*nkers. A group of people on one of the planes decided they would take on the terrorists and force a landing - good for them! At least some people would rather fight and die than sit there protecting their chickenshit hides waiting to die and doing nothing about it!
End of my personal rant... The chances of something happening are minimal - I'm going to continue flying just to stick my middle finger at the bas*ards!
Fly!
B.

[jfields 0]

Quote

A group of people on one of the planes decided they would take on the terrorists and force a landing - good for them! At least some people would rather fight and die than sit there protecting their chickenshit hides waiting to die and doing nothing about it!

Ben,
I can't really place fault with the people in the first three planes. They did what they thought was right under the circumstances. Hijackers prior to that point generally wanted to use the plane to get somewhere. In that case, cooperating would usually mean less deaths. The difference in the last flight is that they knew about the prior ones of the 11th. With the different set of information, they were aware that they would die either way, but chose to save the lives of people on the ground. They just had more information to go on.
Otherwise, I totally agree with your post. I'm all for being extra aware, but carrying on as usual with life. Sorry if I am misinterpreting your post.
Justin
My Homepage

[BenW 0]

Justin,
You're right, there is no way that the people on the other planes could have known - I was in NO way suggesting that they weren't doing the right thing. I was just using the last plane as an example that people can do things!
I'm refering to the rapes and muggings that people just walk straight past, crossing the road. People don't want to get hurt or involved. I would rather die trying to save myself and others than sit there and wait to die! Just as I would try to prevent a mugging or rape.
My point is that we have the choice to do something - let's choose to tell the terrorists that they can't make us run scared - by us continuing to take flights!
B.

[Zennie 0]

Trust me, everything y'all have said is on the "plus" side of the equation. But the hijacking scenario is not the one I'm concerned about. I think another hikacking is extremely unlikely for quite some time to come.
Here's the scenario I think is far more likely...
Bomb screens for checked luggage are extremely lax at American airports. Since we are dealing with people who are completely willing to drive planes into buildings, or strap TNT to themselves and walk into a restaurant, I think we will most likely see someone check their own bomb onto the plane and then go up for the ride with it. No takeover. No confrontation.
Quite frankly I'm appalled that airlines are not screening every single bag. And if they suffer economically because people are afraid to fly, then to some degree they've made their own bed, because an economic decision was obviously made that it was cheaper not to implement full screening. Guess it isn't anymore. So you could argue the flip side of the coin. Maybe it's our duty as consumers to boycott a product where we feel safety isn't up to snuff. That provides an economic incentive to implement those measures. Tighten security, restore passenger (and employee) confidence, and you'll have more people flying your airline again.
As an aside I'll just add my agreement that ppl are getting way too worked up overthe anthrax stuff.
"Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control. Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper."

[Zennie 0]

Well here's the latest...
I called up my airline to tell them about my concerns and hear what they had to say. To make a long story short, I never was able to get a firm answer that yes, indeed, 100% of all bags are screened for explosives. I got a lot of "blah blah...increased security measures... blah blah...doing everything we can..." but no specifics and no firm statements.
As far as their own employees being concerned about security, all I got was that "they have a right to express their views, even though we don't agree". Never got a good answer to my follow-up of "why would they be expressing concerns if it wasn't based on something?"
So I'm not terribly impressed with the answers I'm getting< I felt like it was more of a "Tell them what they want to hear" kind of thing than giving me a straight up answer.
So anyway, I'm still on the fence on this whole deal. Yes the terrorists to a degree win if I don't go. But, yes, the terrorists also win if I'm dead (and so do the airline executives who decided not to spend the money necessary to implement good security).
Oh, and for those of you that wonder what I'd do if the thing were hijacked. I'd do the same thing that I'd do with a malfunction... fight it all the way to the ground.
Flame on....
"Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control. Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper."

[freeflir29 0]

Zennie......take a chill pill. I use this line on students and generally anyone that looks nervous on the jump plane. What's the worst thing that could happen? I get some great looks from that line. From confusion, to their eyes getting wider, to just plain looking away out of fear I suppose. What I think people don't understand is, I'm serious. So you burn in and die. Who cares? You're dead......you certainly don't. Your friends and family care and there will be some sadness but it will pass. Life is 100% fatal and I'm far more concerned about HOW I spend my time here than HOW LONG. Fate is a crazy thing. I quit trying to figure it out long ago. Just do what your gonna do and you'll be much happier. No worries, no regrets.....
"There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[Zennie 0]

Quote

So you burn in and die. Who cares? You're dead......you certainly don't. Your friends and family care and there will be some sadness but it will pass. Life is 100% fatal and I'm far more concerned about HOW I spend my time here than HOW LONG.

Sure, but you wouldn't just stroll across a busy highway just because you felt like it at that particular moment.
Sure we're all gonna die sometime. Sure I can get creamed driving to the airport. Sure I could burn in with a double-mal on my next skydive. But at the same time I'd still like to stick around a while and get a few more skydives (and maybe a BASE jump or two) in if I can at all help it. And I certainly don't want to go out being blown out of the sky by some religious/political zealot.
No we can't sit around & wring our hands worry about when our time is up. But I'm not going to go out of my way to do something that I think might put me or my wife in danger. My thinking is prolly way skewed, but if you asked me BASE jump or flight to San Fran, I'd take the BASE jump cuz I like the odds better.
And like I said, last week I was looking forward to this, but with the State Dept. announcement, the employees being concerned, and the security report, that sent a whole bunch of red flags going off.
All this said, I'll still prolly wind up going.
"Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control. Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper."

[ramon 0]

I think you will statistically be allright. It is my beleif that any intelligent terrorists (that may be giving them too much credit) will no longer be targeting the airlines and will be doing other things like large gatherings (football games) or possibly strategic targets like refineries and chemical plants.
If they are smart which we know they aren't, but their leader might be they will be targeting areas where they perceive the security has not been beefed up and the airlines industry in general is extremely cautious right now.
I would get on with your plans. Your worst problem will probably be false alarms or baggage trouble.
See the following thingy.
Failure of Terror
By now everyone has been hearing the death toll rise and reports of the
destruction from the terrorist attacks on the US. These were deplorable
acts that we will never forget. But now is a time to look at the other side
of the numbers coming out of New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. The sad
but somewhat uplifting side that the mainstream media has not reported yet -
the SURVIVAL rates and some positive news about the attacks.
THE BUILDINGS
The World Trade Center:
The twin towers of the World Trade Center were places of employment for some
50,000 people. With the missing list of over 5,000 people, that means 90%
of the people targeted survived the attack. A 90% on a test is an "A."
The Pentagon:
Some 23,000 people were the target of a third plane aimed at the Pentagon.
The latest count shows that 123 lost their lives. That is an amazing 99.5%
survival rate. In addition, the plane seems to have come in too low, too
early to affect a large portion of the building. On top of that, the
section that was hit was the first of five sections to undergo renovations
that would help protect the Pentagon from terrorist attacks. It had
recently completed straightening and blast proofing, saving untold
lives.
This attack was sad, but a statistical failure.
THE PLANES
American Airlines Flight 77
This Boeing 757 that was flown into the outside of the Pentagon could have
carried up to 289 people, yet only 64 were aboard. Luckily 78% of the seats
were empty.
American Airlines Flight 11
This Boeing 767 could have had up to 351 people aboard, but only carried 92.
Thankfully 74% of the seats were unfilled.
United Airlines Flight 175
Another Boeing 767 that could have sat 351 people only had 65 people on
board. Fortunately it was 81% empty.
United Airlines Flight 93
This Boeing 757 was one of the most uplifting stories yet. The smallest
flight to be hijacked with only 45 people aboard out of a possible 289 had
84% of its capacity unused. Yet these people stood up to the attackers and
thwarted a fourth attempted destruction of a national landmark, saving
untold numbers of lives in the process.
IN SUMMARY
Out of potentially 74,280 + Americans directly targeted by these inept
cowards, 93% survived or avoided the attacks. That's a higher survival rate
than heart attacks, breast cancer, kidney transplants and liver transplants
- all common, survivable illnesses.
Pass this information on... Don't fear these terrorists. The odds are
against them.
Author Unknown.

[chopchop 0]

Hey Zennie, Coming out to jump with us in Byron? I am sure you guys will be fine. Maybe I am just naive but I feel the enhanced security measures will protect us. I'll look for you this weekend.
chopchop
PD makes canopies all day long, you only have one life, when in doubt, cut away...

[freeflir29 0]

"Sure, but you wouldn't just stroll across a busy highway just because you felt like it at that particular moment."
Yes I would. I would do at as carefully as possible but I wouldn't let the risk stop me from crossing if I needed to. I don't let other people or groups control my life. I don't agree with a lot of laws in this country. So, I tend to select the ones I adhere to. I do things every day that ensure I keep my freedom and privacy from "Big Brother" (Whomever that is??) I can't keep him out totally unless I become a hermit but I do what I can. I'm sure as hell not going to let a few jackasses in this world dictate my daily life. In fact I haven't changed my daily routine at all. I was prepared before Sept. 11 and I'm prepared now. I know it's a shock to "The American Public" that there are people out there that would enjoy killing them. This threat has been there for a very long time. Americans have just been so internalized and protected from it that they thought it couldn't happen. Visit South America, Egypt, Korea, Europe some time. Cops and soldiers on the street with automatic weapons are the "Normal" thing. The real world doesn't reflect any "Norman Rockwell" paintings. Right now I'm struggling with the question of whether to try and be "normal" and just live my life and pretend this thing won't affect me. Can I just go to work every day and skydive on the weekends without interference? Should I just realize that this wont go away and go do something about it? I havent decided the answer to this question yet. I guess for now I'll sit back and wait to see what happens next.
*steps down from pulpit* "There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[Zennie 0]

Quote

Coming out to jump with us in Byron?

Wish I could, but I fear my wife's wrath even more than any terrorist. No seriously, she deserves a little break from me skipping off every Saturday so this will be a little "RW" time for us.
Got any restaurant recommendations? And thanks all for the discussion, even freeflir . I knew I was pretty much gonna get torched posting it but I really wanted to hear everybody's thoughts on it.
"Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control. Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper."

[Pammi 0]

Girlfriend Ben?! Sorry, got distracted :)
Well, ya know...I don't think there's anything wrong with being a little afraid of flying Zen. It's what we as skydivers have done before...overcome our fears and pressed forward.
It'll be good :)
At least that's what I keep telling myself when I think about my kids having to fly alone for the first time to see their f*(*U(&ING father this spring. :(
Hemp/skydiving jewelry pics!

[freeflir29 0]

"f*(*U(&ING father"
Hehehehehee........Pammi, as a guy who knows, he probably feels the same way about you....."There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[Brokeneagle 0]

what, that she's a f*(*U(&ING father? Come, now, freeflier29, now that's going just a touch too far;
I'm sure he doesn't think Pammi's a bad dad...
Brokeneagle.
I'm really very gentle, no matter what my kung-fu teacher says...

[Michele 1]

Hi, Zennie.
I agree with you completely about your concern for the bomb scenario. I understand your reticence and hesitation about flying. I have thought about all the scenarios my fertile imagination can come up with. I have come to a different conclusion, though.
To me, it's kind of like skydiving. I can still do everything right, but have a mal that I can do nothing about, and bounce. This sucks. And this is life. And I still jump.
My choice comes down to what I am willing to risk. Am I willing to risk my life (which I do every time I step out of the front door) to live my life and to enjoy what I can enjoy? Yes. Or else I'd stay in my house and hide from the world - which wouldn't work, either, because I could get killed in an eq. Granted, we are talking about a totally contrived situation, rather than an earthquake. But philosophically I think it's the same. I am alive now, and someday I will not be. What's the old saying - the consequence of life is death? Yeah, I think I'd rather be alive, but if it's my time, it is my time, whether an earthquake, a truck on the street, an illness or a bomb in a commerical jet liner.
To me, it's not about saying "fuck you" to the terrorists, or the thought that if I stop my life, the terrorists win. Rather, to me, it is if I stop living my life for whatever reason, if I choose "percieved safety" over life, then I lose. And I lose big.
And fwiw, I really doubt that the assholes will attack that way again, at least not for a while. I think that the more likely scenario is a bio/chem attack, or even some car/truck bombs (ala McVeigh), that kind of thing.
Just my .02, it's your decision, your life.
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[Aviatrr 0]

Quote

So whatcha all think? Are we geting way too worked up or would you do the same thing?

Yes, you are getting way too worked up over this.. I have been on the airlines many times since Sept 11, and if I didn't feel it was safe(or as safe as it can be, anyways) - I wouldn't do it.. Do I think there are holes in the security procedures? I sure as hell do.. I find it utterly ridiculous that they single people out for bag searches just prior to boarding based on when they book their flight, and whether it's one way or round trip.. A one way flight, or a flight booked less than 24 hours prior to the flight, will cause the passenger to be flagged in the computer for a pathetic, ridiculous search.. When my company books travel for me on the airlines, it is one way AND always done less than 24 hours before the flight - so guess what happens to me EVERY time.. Pathetic.. Use some of this manpower to, at least, random check the baggage of people NOT flagged by the computer - ESPECIALLY checked baggage..
All in all, I feel safe enough to get on the planes without hesitation - but I no longer travel in anything that identifies me as a pilot(used to travel in Polo shirts with company name on it).. I usually take the CREW tags off my luggage, or at least flip 'em over so people can't see the CREW part.. Have I changed my patterns as a result of the attacks? Yes.. Have I changed my lifestyle? Hell no.. Screw the bastards..
Mike

[Zennie 0]

Thanks again, especially Aviatr & Michele, for more insight.
I'm coming to my senses. Michele's insight was especially apropos.
But also I appreciate hearing from an "insider" such as Aviatr. If you honestly feel safe enough to fly, and know basically the inner workings of things, that goes a long way in restoring my confidence. So thanks.
Since I'm picture-boy, I'll make sure to post pics when I get back.
"Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control. Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper."

[rgoper 0]

zennie:
i trained at spaceland just like you did, only way before. don't confine yourself to one dz. come out and cahallenge your new found skills, ok, so you can take pictures...humph...well. lets go out and do some freeflying, sit, headdown, speedstar, whatever.
i'm not slamming your achievements, they are wonderful. BUT...if your skered of jumping for whatever reason, jump in the pocket of my freefly suit! forget the pictures, and documentation of your achievements (although amaturish in my opinion) via fly cam. let's go! come out to skydive houston in waller, lets see whats what.
this is a challenge by the way.
Blue Skies....Black Death
From the real "wild one"
Richard
never under estimate the forces of gravity, i don't, and it is my friend!

[Zennie 0]

Ummmm... better re-read the thread because it's about flying commercial airliners, not jumping. I'm not afraid of jumping, that what makes the whole thing so silly.
As far as the photography goes, I've never proclaimed myself professional or talented. I just like to take them and share them with other people. If you don't like them, or my website, which I've also freely admitted is not all that great, you are perfectly free not to go there. You won't hurt my feelings. It's more a place to share things with friends and family, some of whom are very far away, some who live in town.
As far as Waller goes, the main reason I haven't gone up there is proximity. I live in Clear Lake and Spaceland is much closer. I've always felt challenged and have many good friends at Spaceland, so I've never really felt a compelling need to look elsewhere. Still, I do want to check out the other DZs and get to know some of the other skydivers in Houston (and San Marcos, BTW). So I'll make it up there hopefully soon.
"Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control. Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper."

[Merrick 0]

Well DICKforshort, you're just a complete ass-hole aren't you?!?! Re-read the thread, this had nothing to do with skydiving.... and how bout posting some of those Pulitzer Prize winning photos that you've taken, or that Gold 42nd Street Website award you just received.
"Pammi's Hemp/Skydiving Jewelry"