Building Escape Parachutes

[mickknutson 0]

Well, I think there are many great reason for the system.
Most of which are all mental in the minds of tenants of High rises and hotels.
Las Vegas can't book anything above the 10th floor since the incident. They are loosing thousands of dollars per day, when a token icon could give the reassurance to those currently opposed to staying in the upper floors.
Go to:
http://www.baselogic.com/bes/
Thusfar, this is the best and most appropriate system n the market.

[diver123 0]

Fine work people, you've all made very valid points in this discussion. However, I personally, am all about pro-choice... Just as we should all have our own opinions, we should all be afforded an opportunity to make our own decisions as well. Please don't mis-interpret this as some half-cocked, shooting off at the mouth comment, but I believe that should you ask any one of those people (God rest their souls) who made the decsion to jump out of the building from above the wreckage ,because they had no other choice, if they would've taken their chances with an emergency parachute...well, I believe we all know the answer to that one... Hell, while you're at it, ask anyone who watched/survived the incident if they would've minded, in the least bit, if those same people attempted to save themselves by using a parachute even if it did represent a risk... I assure you that I do have some common sense and am by no means advocating a bunch of unnecessary deaths, but I'll be damned for eternity before I let someone tell me, "Sorry sir, we're not going to allow you to attempt survival cause it's too dangerous...try the stairway...". That's no one's decision but the individual... I know you'd all like to think that everyone in our sport is the safest of individuals and that we all go to great lengths to further our knowledge for the sake of safety and such, but that simply is not true... So in that respect, we could say that maybe it's not such a good idea to allow us to do what we do??? But, we don't... We leave it up to the individual and say that he/she skydives or base jumps at their own risk... That's exactly my point...
"pull high! It's lower than you think..."

[chopchop 0]

I voted yes thinking that even if they only have a 10% chance of making it down alive with a parachute, it is better than none. I admit I hadn't considered the fact that a bunch of idiots might try their first base jump from their office on Friday afternoon for no apparent reason. Yahoo!!! Splat!
Or the possibility that people might not see it as a very last resort. They may take the chance on the parachute rather than suffer some minor burns or other injuries less severe than death.
In retrospect I think having these around within reach of untrained people without the proper respect for the situation they would be facing upon leaving a highrise is a bad idea. It could cause more deaths than save lives.
chopchop
PD makes canopies all day long, you only have one life, when in doubt, cut away...

[freeflir29 0]

One other thing.....Does "Static Line" deployment sound like a good idea off a building? Seems like it might have the tendancy to pull you back into the building. Don't have a weak exit I guess...."There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[wildblue 7]

The real problem here is the IQ of the average executive manager type person normally found in high-rise office buildings. I mean, come on, don't you read Dilbert??
My sunshine-She finer than a painted rose- Aerosmith - Sunshine

[Aviatrr 0]

Here's my take on this issue.. If somebody wants to have a parachute for "safety" reasons because they live or work in a high rise - get the proper training and buy a BASE rig.. Otherwise, it's just not even close to being safe.. ESPECIALLY if there are hundreds or thousands of untrained people(I don't consider watching a video tape on how to use it training) in a building with those rigs when it catches fire..
If I ever go to work or live in a high rise, and I feel that this type of escape may be necessary, I will get a BASE rig, or a skydiving rig with some mods.. If I'm below the level which I feel I could survive a BASE jump(like the 10th floor), I'll stash enough rope to get to the ground and some rapelling gear in the closet.. Am I this paranoid? Nope.. On the other hand, if I had any such gear staring me in the face every day......I'd be too tempted to use it just for fun.. "But, officer, I swear....I thought the building was on fire when I BASE'd off it! Regardless of what those other 100 people tell you, I WAS NOT THE ONE THAT PULLED THAT FIRE ALARM!"
Mike

[billvon 3,006]

. . . Just like I
think it's bullshit that I can't exit a commercial airliner that's out of control. Anyone remember the one that crashed in Sioux City, Iowa.
Passengers had forever and 3 days to get out of that one. But nobody onboard had a rig. I'd be rather pissed off if I found myself in that
situation.
If I were on that plane, I would not only not jump, I would try to stop you from jumping (if you tried.)
You have every right to try to save yourself. You have no right at all to put the other hundred-odd people on that plane at risk by trying to open a door on a plane that is barely under control. Looking at all the accidents in recent aviation history, I could find only one where having your rig (but not wearing it) could have saved you from certain death without risking everyone else's life - and that was a JAL 747 that blew its entire rear pressure bulkhead out, resulting in a huge hole in the tailcone.
The idea of taking your rig on an airline as a precaution is a nice one, but unless you're wearing it during the entire flight, the chances of it helping you during an emergency are essentially zero. If having it causes you to try to open a door on an airliner that's having a problem, it actually reduces your chances of surviving said problem.
-bill von

[billvon 3,006]

>One other thing.....Does "Static Line" deployment sound like a good idea off a building? Seems like it might have the tendancy to pull you
>back into the building.
Your mass is so much greater than the force exerted by the breakcord/velcro/Dbag friction etc that that's not really an issue on a properly rigged system.
-bill von

[billvon 3,006]

>But, here is why I voted in favour. I was thinking of the people that did jump out of the WTC. Those who decided that falling to their
death was a better way to go than burning or choking to death. If I was one of those people, facing that decision, I would love to have an
alternate rescue option, however bad that option might be, it would still give me a better chance than nothing...
I don't think anyone is saying that BASE rigs should not be allowed in tall buildings. The question, I believe, is should they be offered to the whuffo public as a means of building escape, perhaps even in handy dispensers right next to the fire hose? I do not think they should - they would kill too many people. I hope manufacturers have enough common sense to see this.
The way it stands now, anyone who wants a BASE rig for building escape must do enough research to know who makes them, what they're called, what size they need, what deployment system to ask for etc. and this is a good thing - it's a built in safety mechanism that prevents completely clueless people from using them. I would hate to see a panicky 300 pound woman putting a BASE rig on, forgetting the leg straps, then jumping out a window when someone burns popcorn on the floor below them.
We say we don't want more regulation in skydiving or in BASE. Think TV coverage of half a dozen people dying, and taking out another half dozen people on the ground when they misuse their BASE rigs during an otherwise minor (and survivable) building fire, will increase or decrease regulation of the respective sports?
-bill von

[fatboy 0]

I agree with Bill, nobody wants additional regulation in our sport, however providing these rigs would inevitably invoke some form of legislation/inspection regime.
Kelly made an excellent point that I also support, there are likely to be a high percentage of injuries associated with the use of emergency chutes. These injuries would bog down the triage process, and soak up rescue resources that could otherwise be more effectively deployed.
Don't expect too many companies to fund the provision of these rigs either, they will have to justify the expense by conducting a cost benefit analysis. The situations where the use of such an escape system would be required are thankfully relatively infrequent (in risk terms), the probability of successful use is also relatively low, therefore the budget available for the company providing these to their employees is also disgustingly low. The harsh reality is that instead of providing an emergency rig, it makes better financial sense (to employing companies) to buy a few insurance policies
But hey, you guys live in the land of the free, if you work in a high rise, then the choice to buy one is yours...Go ahead.

[cobaltdan 0]

"The way it stands now, anyone who wants a BASE rig for building escape must do enough research to know who makes them, what they're called, what size they need, what deployment
system to ask for etc. and this is a good thing - it's a built in safety mechanism that prevents completely clueless people from using them. "
not true, a bunch of companies are marketing click and order systems, some even one size fits all. one i find particularly appauling is executive chute. they are all over every tv show you can imagine pushing a 16' diameter apex down round paraglider reserve in a fudged harness. the whole thing can fit in a purse.
most of us are not too familiar with round technology, but an apex down paraglider reserve is not designed to be used alone. they are very cheap and open fast, but oscilate unstabily and required the drag of a partially collapsed paraglider to stabilize it. you do not cut away when using a paraglider reserve.
sincerely,
dan
atair

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

not true, a bunch of companies are marketing click and order systems, some even one size fits all. one i find particularly appauling is executive chute. they are all over every tv show you can imagine pushing a 16' diameter apex down round paraglider reserve in a fudged harness. the whole thing can fit in a purse.

That brings up a thought that probably deserves it's own thread, but what hell.
What do people think about the mass marketing of the 'escape parachutes' to the general public. Are the companies trying to provide a legitimate means of escape, or is this just another case of capitolism at its worst, preying on the fears and emotions of the world in order to sell a product and make a quick buck?

[wingnut 0]

i don't see what all the marketing hype is about... everybody knows that those little airline blankets work great as a parachute if ya hold the corners and jump.........
it is wierd, my mom was asking me about this yesterday, if a middle aged woman from central ohio has heard about this then i guess they are bound to get some orders from scared buisness men and women that are closer to the problem....now would you be penilized if there was a small fire in your building and you broke out your 50th floor window and jumped? would they fire you or make you pay for the window???

"up my noooossseee"- wingnut, at first euro dz.com boogie

[skybytch 273]

Quote

just another case of capitolism at its worst, preying on the fears and emotions of the world in order to sell a product and make a quick buck?

I'm sure there's some of that going on, this is the US after all. You'd be amazed at how many emails and phone calls I've answered in the past month from whuffos asking for technical/financial/manufacturing assistance so they could sell something like this - one wanted us to provide all of the above, he just wanted a cut for having the idea!

I've solved this problem for myself.... I work in a one story building
pull and flare,
lisa

[billvon 3,006]

"The way it stands now, anyone who wants a BASE rig for building escape must do enough research to know who makes them, what they're called, what size they need, what deployment
system to ask for etc. and this is a good thing - it's a built in safety mechanism that prevents completely clueless people from using them. "
>not true, a bunch of companies are marketing click and order systems, some
>even one size fits all.
Yeah, I should have said "The way it stood before 9/11." I think such sales are a bad thing.
> one i find particularly appauling is executive chute. they are
> all over every tv show you can imagine pushing a 16' diameter apex down round
> paraglider reserve in a fudged harness. the whole thing can fit in a purse.
I've actually thought of doing that, but with a climbing harness and a Tempo reserve in a hand-deployed bag. It could easily fit in a fanny pack. (For experimental aircraft use, not buildings.)
I have a feeling most people wouldn't even survive a good landing under a 16' round reserve, PDA or not.
-bill von

[freeflir29 0]

"I have a feeling most people wouldn't even survive a good landing under a 16' round reserve, PDA or not."
You ain't kiddin! It would probably be pretty roughin a perfectly open field. Now put yourself trying to land in an urban environment with all the obstacles. Your chances aren't too much better than jumping without a chute..."There once was a man named Enis....."-Krusty the Clown
Clay

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

I would hate to see a panicky 300 pound woman putting a BASE rig on, forgetting the leg straps, then jumping out a window when someone burns popcorn on the floor below them.

That is an ugly mental picture

Quote

We say we don't want more regulation in skydiving or in BASE. Think TV coverage of half a dozen people dying, and taking out another half dozen people on the ground when they misuse their BASE rigs during an otherwise minor (and survivable) building fire, will increase or decrease regulation of the respective sports?

I know I will get flamed for this, but so be it........I think that that argument is so incredibly egoistic and egocentric that it should not even be part of this discussion.
just my 0.02c,
SkyDekker

[billvon 3,006]

>I find it really really hard to believe that there first thought would be to jump out
>of the building
People panic. They panic when they see spilled flour nowadays. Now imagine that there's a panicky exec on the 83rd floor, who sees smoke coming down the hallway from the minor electrical fire on the floor below. He tries his phone - it's out! Someone down the hallway says "I think I see a 757!" He eyes the "emergency escape rig" that he just spent $1000 for.
I think that, if your hope would be that he wouldn't use it until he's about to burn to death, that would be an unfounded hope. If they are sold to whuffos, they will be used.
>I know I will get flamed for this, but so be it........I think that that argument is so
> incredibly egoistic and egocentric that it should not even be part of this
> discussion.
It's not egocentric, it's selfish. I make those decisions all the time. Heck, there are students (and even experienced jumpers) who I won't jump with because I think they're going to die. Now, that's not my responsibility, of course - in skydiving, we accept that people have the right to make their own decisions on life and death. But even if I hate the guy's guts, I wouldn't want to see him go in - both because any death is bad, and because I do believe it is worth some sacrifice in other people's freedoms to make the sport a bit safer. That is a selfish sentiment, because it's something I want and am willing to give up other people's freedoms for. You may feel differently, that's fine.
-bill von

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Even with all the compelling reasons people have listed denouncing the idea, I am still 100% for it. I don't think it's what we need for everyone; I like the ventilator/safety clothing idea for the general populace. Have lockers set up on every floor with that equipment in it, but at the same time don't disuade the interested from purchasing escape-specific parachute systems. It is obvious from seeing the fiasco on Good Morning America that a simpler harness needs to be fashioned for this purpose, though I find it absolutely unsatisfactory that the company rep did not practice for that TV spot! Duh!
Also, just to clarify: the round chutes I recommend for use are the ones currently in use in pilot rigs; namely National Phantoms, Security LoPos, etc.
Chuck
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"