Hippies Strike Back!

[freeflir29 0]

What a bunch of idiots!
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Hundreds of people marched peacefully from Union Square to Times Square to demonstrate against U.S. military action in the wake of terrorist attacks that leveled the World Trade Center and damaged the Pentagon, killing thousands.
"Peace, not war," chanted many of the crowd, many of whom appeared old enough to have been involved in similar demonstrations in the early 1970s.
Police estimated the crowd size at 900; an organizer estimated it to be "in the thousands."
"We feel that the acts committed last Tuesday are a crime against humanity and that those responsible should be held accountable," said a release to the news media announcing the Friday evening march.


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"We now have international mechanisms such as the International Criminal Court and the U.N. War Crimes Tribunal as forums for international justice. We call on the Bush administration to embrace these mechanisms and to work with the U.N. and the international community to prosecute these and other war criminals."
En route to Times Square, the marchers stopped at Madison Square Park, where about 50 Muslims had gathered to express their solidarity with family and friends of people killed or missing in the attacks.
Muslims join chorus for restraint
Because their permit to demonstrate had been rescinded, several of the Muslims instead joined with the peace marchers.
"We feel more and more under threat of backlash," said Sunita Mehta, a member of Women for Afghan Women. "We feel the atmosphere thickening."
Mehta said she is afraid of a possible backlash against people from Afghanistan who live in the United States. "It's important for our community and it's important for the world to see that there are Muslims in America who are not terrorists, who are for peace."
About the prospects of war, she said, "I pray that it won't happen."
"We seem to be on the brink of war," said Imam Talib Abdur-Rashid, a member of the Islamic Leadership Council of New York City and Imam of the mosque of the Islamic Brotherhood in Harlem.
"You cannot bomb away hatred, but you can pray away hatred. And so we encourage men and women throughout the nation to engage in prayer."
"As Muslims, we condemn the heinous crime, grieve and mourn with our fellow Americans, and stand in solidarity with them," said rally organizer Robi Niaz.
"I think this is the first time in my life when color of my skin, my religion has become such that when I walk on the street people stare at me," said Syed Dilawar.
"If, unfortunately, we cannot find the culprit and we do some kind of massive retaliation, there is a possibility that we might commit almost a similar crime that has been committed against us."
The marchers continued on to Times Square, where they rallied at a recruiting station for the armed forces.
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[skymedic 0]

Give me a fricking break...these are the same bastards that probably ran away in the 60's. fucking pacifist's piss me off.
Marc
Because I fly, I envy no man on earth

[Donna 0]

I don't think they are idiots at all. They are entitled to their own opinion. They may not be right but I think they make some good points. I also fear for people of Middle East backgrounds who live in the US. They are being the targets of hate crimes. Did you see the little boy on the special last night talking about how his friends are telling him it was his fault? One story I heard was about a little 3 year old girl who lost her eye after a brick was thrown threw her living room window.
Here is an article I found interesting. Click here.
***********************************
some other thoughts from a thoughtful person
The images on television have been heartbreaking.
People on fire leaping to their deaths from a hundred stories up. People in
panic and fear racing from the scene in clouds of dust and smoke.
We knew that there must be thousands of human beings buried alive, but soon
dead under a mountain of debris. We can only imagine the terror among the
passengers of the hijacked planes as they contemplated the crash, the fire,
the end. Those scenes horrified and sickened me.
Then our political leaders came on television, and I was horrified and
sickened again. They spoke of retaliation, of vengeance, of punishment.
We are at war, they said. And I thought: they have learned nothing,
absolutely nothing, from the history of the twentieth century, from a
hundred years of retaliation, vengeance, war, a hundred years of terrorism
and counter-terrorism, of violence met with violence in an unending cycle
of stupidity.
We can all feel a terrible anger at whoever, in their insane idea that this
would help their cause, killed thousands of innocent people. But what do we
do with that anger? Do we react with panic, strike out violently and
blindly just to show how tough we are? "We shall make no distinction," the
President proclaimed, "between terrorists and countries that harbor
terrorists." Will we now bomb Afghanistan, and inevitably kill innocent
people, because it is in the nature of bombing to be indiscriminate, to
"make no distinction"? Will we then be committing terrorism in order to
"send a message" to terrorists?
We have done that before. It is the old way of thinking, the old way of
acting. It has never worked. Reagan bombed Libya, and Bush made war on
Iraq, and Clinton bombed Afghanistan and also a pharmaceutical plant in the
Sudan, to "send a message" to terrorists. And then comes this horror in New
York and Washington. Isn't it clear by now that sending a message to
terrorists through violence doesn't work, only leads to more terrorism?
Haven't we learned anything from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Car bombs planted by Palestinians bring air attacks and tanks by the
Israeli government. That has been going on for years. It doesn't work.
And innocent people die on both sides.
Yes, it is an old way of thinking, and we need new ways. We need to think
about the resentment all over the world felt by people who have been the
victims of American military action. In Vietnam, where we carried out
terrorizing bombing attacks, using napalm and cluster bombs,on peasant
villages. In Latin America, where we supported dictators and death squads
in Chile and El Salvador and other countries. In Iraq, where a million
people have died as a result of our economic sanctions, And, perhaps most
important for understanding the current situation, in the occupied
territories of the West Bank and Gaza, where a million and more
Palestinians live under a cruel military occupation, while our government
supplies Israel with high-tech weapons.
We need to imagine that the awful scenes of death and suffering we are now
witnessing on our television screens have been going on in other parts of
the world for a long time, and only now can we begin to know what people
have gone through, often as a result of our policies. We need to understand
how some of those people will go beyond quiet anger to acts of terrorism.
We need new ways of thinking. A $300 billion dollar military budget has not
given us security. Military bases all over the world, our warships on every
ocean, have not given us security. Land mines and a "missile defense
shield" will not give us security. We need to rethink our position in the
world. We need to stop sending weapons to countries that oppress other
people or their own people. We need to decide that we will not go to war,
whatever reason is conjured up by the politicians of the media, because war
in our time is always indiscriminate, a war against innocents, a war
against children. War is terrorism, magnified a hundred times.
Our security can only come by using our national wealth, not for guns,
planes, bombs, but for the health and welfare of our people - for free
medical care for everyone, education and housing guaranteed decent wages
and a clean environment for all. We can not be secure by limiting our
liberties, as some of our political leaders are demanding, but only by
expanding them.
We should take our example not from our military and political leaders
shouting "retaliate" and "war" but from the doctors and nurses and medical
students and firemen and policemen who have been saving lives in the midst
of mayhem, whose first thoughts are not violence, but healing, not
vengeance but compassion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Howard Zinn
I don't know what the right answer is but I think we should think about it carefully before we just start bombing countries. Justice must be served for this horrible crime but let's make sure we do it right.
Flame away.
Skies,
D

[skymedic 0]

I concurr Donna, I want this done right, but I definately hate these people that just want to sit back and take this crap with no retribution. I lost one of my best friends in this. he was on one of the first due engines. He deserves retribution and justice.
Marc
Because I fly, I envy no man on earth

[freeflir29 0]

Man....Mr Zinn wins the "I'm a complete fucking moron" Award for the week dated 22 Sep 01. If you support that drivel we'll get to you next week......LOL
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[freeflir29 0]

"Reagan bombed Libya"
I happen to think that this was one of the single greatest actions an American President has taken in the past 30 yrs. Probably since using nukes! AND IT WORKED. Killed one of that idiots children and all of a sudden we didn't hear another word from him. Hmmmmmmmm...seemed pretty damn effective to me!
I suppose this guy would have hugged the terrorists on those planes and offered them medical insurance..........LMAO
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[Donna 0]

Marc... Did you read the article on the url I posted? I don't think most people don't want retribution and justice. They just want to make sure it happens to the people who deserve it and so it WILL make a difference in the long run.
For myself, I want every one of those fucking terrorists and their supporters to pay with their lives but I don't want to just start bombing countries with it not really doing much good except to make the American people feel like they are doing something.
Skies,
D

[Zennie 0]

Well, I'm pretty much a pacifist by nature. I generally believe retributive killing (usually in the form of warfare) simply perpetucates the cycle of hate and violence rather than solves the world's problems. This whole incident has created a lot of mixed emotions for me, and I'm still trying to sort through them.
I'll start by say bombing the crap out of Kabul, Baghdad or any other place is simply going to kill more innocent people. People such as those in New York who are simply trying to live their daily lives. Loss of innocent life is tragic no matter where it takes place.
That said. I also don't think in this particular case that sitting idly by is going to solve the problem either. I really don't think these people are terribly interested in working out a diplomatic solution to their grievances. So if we just do nothing, as a true pacifist would advocate, I think we're only inviting more senseless bloodshed.
I'm glad to see that our government so far has refrained from engaging wholesale retaliatory bombing. I'm hoping that the powers that be recognize the delicate balance that must be struck between defending ourselves against future attacks and engaging in behavior which makes us no better than those whom we are "at war" with.
I'm also hoping that our military & intelligence communities can eliminate our security threats with a minimal amount of bloodshed. I'm not holding my breath, and I'm following all of this with a great deal of concern, but you never know.
In the meantime I think we should all keep those men and women in our military (and those of our allies) who are being sent to far away lands, some of whom will never return, in our thoughts and prayers.
--------
Zennie
"I know the pieces fit. 'Cause I watched them fall away..."
--Tool

[freeflir29 0]

I have to agree with you on those points Zennie. The bad thing is....There is no "good" solution to any of this. I'm very happy that restraint is being shown and support garnered from so many nations. (I think Goerge Dubya had his Dad whispering in his ear on this one.) Thats the only way terrorism will be deterred. If all our neighbors on the planet pitch in to help and give the roaches no place to hide!
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[nimbus 0]

I agree with Donna & Zennie... it's such a complex situation, any retaliatory action needs lots of thought behind it, to react rashly and harm other innocent people would give no justice to those who died. I think of myself as a pacifist, but also concede that something needs to be done about terrorism. I don't necessarily think bombing Afghanistan will do anything, though.
Many Afghani people have fled the cities, apart from the poorest of course, who always come out worse in many situations, including war. The country has no food, snow-bringing winter is coming, the mountains are treacherous (Kush means death), the plains are littered with landmines. Is bin Laden even there anymore? Some who have studied this country for years think he may be in the Pakistan highlands, an unlawful and violent area.
As for not wanting war, well who in their right mind would want war? Some kind of retaliation & justice is deserved in this case against the people who planned, aided and carried out the attacks, so we may have to have some kind of "war" but we shouldn't be happy about it. I don't think the protestors are stupid, just scared, and I can't imagine they mean any disrespect to the people who died in the attacks.
There are so many deaths all over the world every day to cry over, to rail against. We should fight for all of these people.
Larissa

[skymedic 0]

My only problem with bombing these bastards is this, that we will make more little bastards when we kill there parents....this is my only fear.
but someone must pay for this...
Marc
Because I fly, I envy no man on earth

[freeflir29 0]

"we will make more little bastards when we kill there parents"
Yeah....like on "Itchy and Scratchy" when the cat chopped up the mouse but he turned into a bunch more smaller meaner mice! Man...that sucked!
"This conversation ends right here Captain! You can talk to the ALO when he gets back."-Me
Clay

[skymedic 0]

Exactly man...I love itchy and scratchy...
Marc
Because I fly, I envy no man on earth

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Quote

Our security can only come by using our national wealth, not for guns, planes, bombs, but for the health and welfare of our people - for free medical care for everyone, education and housing guaranteed decent wages
and a clean environment for all.

[angry rant mode]
Now that paragraph is the only one that I kind of liked. I have said for my entire grown-up life said that we need to stop giving money to people that do not appreciate it. You want to show people who the man is? Stop ALL foreign aid for a couple of years and let the world see how tough it is to make it on your own. Does anyone here know how much money we (the USA) give to Isreal every year? It is a TREMENDOUS amount. Absolutely no malice intended towards Omri and any other individual, I am talking government policy here. Does anyone know how much money the even larger countries owe us for propping them back up after THEY declared war on US? We will never see even a penny of any of it, yet we still give to these so called "friends" every time they stick their hand out. I say fuck them all and feed them fish heads! It is an absolute tragedy that we have farmers losing their land, families living in their station wagons and begging on the streets, and young soldiers living below the poverty line. This, while we repeatedly rebuild and subsidise third-world piss-holes like Haiti where NOBODY gives a shit about ANYTHING and they would just as soon steal from their mother than get a real job. If we stopped every bit of the outside aid we give for a couple of years, with that tremendous windfall we could do wonders for our country. We are a bunch of idiots and we do not even use the tinyest portion of our true natural resources. Do any of you really think that we actually need the oil we get from the middle east? There is probably more oil under New Mexico than there is in the entire middle east; we just don't yet exploit it because we might frighten off a Red Cockaded Woodpecker or something.
The majority of the world is VERY corrupt and it's people are absolutely not like you and I. You think I am kidding? Get out of your cushy office/house and join the Army or the Peace Corps. Brothers and sisters let me tell you that I have been all around this planet more times than I care to say and I have seen it all. Most people just want us to give them some dough, then get the hell out. They are not interested in changing foreign or internal policy to appease us. They have lived their entire lives (1000's of years in some cases) taking ass whoopings from whatever band of left or right wing zealots are currently in power, and most citizens truly don't know any different. Because of this, they have an entirely different outlook on life and you truly cannot expect them to respect the things that we take for granted; human rights for example, due process another (even though our legal system is fucked in my opinion). I hate it, but that is the truth of the matter. I have trained good guys who later became bad guys and bad guys who later became good guys. Unbelievable. I don't think we should be training anyone, especially nowadays. I don't think we need to be replacing one fucked up government with another; let them work out their own damn problems, WE DID when it came to it.
[/rant mode]
Chuck

[Emma 0]

Quote

fuck them all and feed them fish heads!

LMAO!
To some extent I agree. You have to have compassion but you also have to draw the line somewhere.
However, on the aid issue, correct me if I'm wrong (and I mean that in the true spirit of open-minded debate) but don't most 'first world' countries still demand crippling interest on these 'loans'?
And on this issue:

Quote

we do not even use the tinyest portion of our true natural resources. Do any of you really think that we actually need the oil we get from the middle east? There is probably more oil under New Mexico than there is in the entire middle east; we just don't yet exploit it because we might frighten off a Red Cockaded Woodpecker or something.

again, tell me different if I'm wrong, but i understood the idea was to use up the rest of the world's resources so that when all the oil runs out, the USA will be ok cos they'll have their own left? Which they can then use up while the rest of the world is totally fucked?
I'm really not saying I'm right here, this is just some stuff I've heard.
Emma

[ramon 0]

All the kiddies and political experts (educated by TV and military) are spouting their opinions on the skydiving board (I mean bored..yawn) and you come in quoting Zinn.
You are officially on my cool list, Donna.
bloo skies
ramon

[ramon 0]

or make big bastards when we kill their children. It will be horrible if we fuck it up...but then we usually do such a good job....
like when renegade Generals in Saddam's army wanted to overthrow him, they did not ask for help or support only captured Iraqi weapons, Bush said no, Generals were executed and Saddam is building more palaces while his people have nothing.
like when Clinton killed a bunch of goats and 21 people (missing all of Al Queda) the day after he told us about Monica..yawn.

[skreamer 1]

Quote

The majority of the world is VERY corrupt and it's people are absolutely not like you and I.

By 'you and I' I take it you are referring to yourself and your fellow long-suffering Americans? Just don't forget to relocate all those Nike sweat-shops back to the USA as well Chuck, so all those deprived starving American children will have a job.
Will

[ramon 0]

Hey chuck
25% of all the foreign aid we give to the world goes to Israel...a very tiny little country.
sorry Omri
Every year the UN has a vote to declare Israel a terrorist state (1 veto is all that is needed), the US vetoes. We give them attack helicopters instead (they use US choppers when they fly over Palestine) go figure why they hate us rocks & bottles vs machine guns
quote from Israeli intelligence Officer (Aman)
How to counter this kind of terrorism? "To fight these bastards you don’t need a military attack," said an experienced Israeli commando officer. "You only need to adopt Israel’s assassination policy."
Same article that mentions Israel planting car bombs against PLO/terrorist targets....ergo...counter terrorism = terrorism.
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr010919_1_n.shtml
bloo skies dude
ramon

[ramon 0]

ha ha
Part of the strategy for capitalism is to allow corporations to perform investments in countries with a strong oppressive regime in place. this keeps the people submissive and cheap and stable..and executives on either side of the border make the money.
Of course we (the US) do this it is in the name of "freedom and human rights and American values, laissez faire economics..things all hard working americans cherish (say this with Clinton or Bush accent it works both ways) and the press gives us stories of how we are saving human rights as opposed to screwing everyone over (NAFTA).
Unfortunately Chuck is right. the typical American citizen (whose real wages have been going down since the 50s incidentally) does not mean ill toward other countries they are misguided by TV/press/consumerism, they have no idea what is the outcome is when american corporations make deals with other countries. We are spoon fed that it is good for America and good for freedom (whatever).
You can manipulate a population.
ramon

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I was just venting, Will. And yes, I know that businessmen the world over will continue to do everything in their power to make a buck. I was really just referring to general National identity and ideology.
The major point I was trying to make in that lengthy diatribe was that I don't think the American government ought to be subsidizing the rest of the world, "free" or otherwise. As for charging exhorbitant interest rates on international loans: if a country isn't going to make an effort to repay a loan anyway, why should they give a shit what number is on the dotted line? Just my opinion, but based on all that I have actually seen in my travels; not just what some geek spouted out in a humanities class at the local university. I hate the political machine and it grieves me when I get sent to places where I know nothing anyone does is going to change a thing. You think that has anything to do with military indoctrination? Oh hell no. All of the international aid workers that I encounter say the same thing, as do the majority of missionaries. I am a pretty callous guy, but it really pains those guys to see it. I can hope for world peace all I want, but it isn't going to happen in my lifetime, I can promise you that. That being said, I just think our money would be better spent at home, on projects like some other countries have: free healthcare for all, better education opportunities for the less fortunate (free trade-schools, etc.)
You are right Ramon, this is boring, but I didn't start the rant. I did get suckered into spouting off, though, didn't I? LOL! I am one of the slobs that is probably going to have to react to this latest shit, though. In the meantime, I think I will just sit here at my desk and post away to more jump-related threads and have another cup of coffee. Fuck, I am so ready to retire.
Chuck

[skymedic 0]

Will, we do have ALOT of poor and suffering children in America. just because most of us are comfortable doesnt mean ALL of us are...
Marc
Because I fly, I envy no man on earth

[herv 0]

You know the fact that everyone here is able to express their views and the hippies are allowed to demonstrate without fear of reprisals is what makes this country the greatest. But now I will exercise my freedom of speech and you can choose to read it or not. This subject really gets me going so I will try not to ramble.
First of all the hippies would understand more if they would take their rose-colord glasses off and face the HARD facts of life. No sensible person wants war. In my 16th year in the military I have no wish to see innocent people die. But unfortunately it is a fact of the world life and you might as well wake up to it. During Desert Storm it was reported on CNN that Saddam was hiding higher level HQ's in hospitals and schools hoping that we wouldn't attack those places. The world knows that Americans are the first to try to prevent the losss of innocents. That includes the military. But, unfortunately it does happen. It's a fact of life.
To remove a cancer you must damage or even destroy healthy tissue in most cases. The world is full of cancers.
While I was too young to realize much about the Vietnam War, I have done extensive research on it. General consensus is that if the politicians had kept their nose out of it and let the generals do their job, we would have won. But the politicians were being pressured by the hippies and pacifists back home. So, therefore many soldiers lost their lives because we weren't allowed to bomb this area or attack that area. In other words, IMHO, the hippies assisted the NVA in killing our boys. What kind of shit is that!
(Now I'm working myself up) You friggin hippies are so quick to preach your peace not war. Do you really think that the USA gets bored and says, "Hey let's go invade a country today". Can't you realize that every other option is attempted first. If my son attacks my other son I may scold him or place him on restriction. But if he does it again, I'm going to spank him, he gets the message and stops his bad actions. Well, these coutries like Afghan need to be spanked.
(Getting more worked up) All of us love our country and the freedom we have. Like hippies getting to walk around bashing my military. Well you have those freedoms thanks to the military. You want to have your cake and eat it too. I think one of the worst things ever done is the discontinuing of the draft. Everyone wants to enjoy the luxiories of being an American, but only some are willing to sacrifice to earn it.
I'm a recruiter for the military and I see first hand the attitude of both teenagers and parents to the thought of going into our all-volunteer forces. Some choose to do their part and spend some time in the Armed Forces. Most do not want to be bothered with it. They would rather continue to live their cushy little lives and let someone else protect their freedoms for them. How can you look at yourself in the mirror?
The day after the WTC attacks I was so pleased to see the American people pulling together as one. The flags flying and the anthems being played . I thought "Wow, we got a wake up call and Americans young and old, black and white, Republican and Democrat are answering the call". I also wondered if when I got back to work if their would be messages from all these patriotic people seeing how they could help serve their country. There was 2. Both people had been in the military before and wanted to see about coming back in. That's pretty amazing. 2 people that had already done their part previously and deserved the oppurtunity to enjoy the fruits of their labors, wanted once again to carry the load of the entire Country.
But, not one call from what we call a non-prior service. That to me is sad and disgusting. I even had someone that was scheduled to enlist this month change his mind due to the tragedy. His response to me was that he didn't want to go in right now because he doesn't want to go to war and die. What? We in the military have a death wish? Hell no. (Of course since I skydive some whuffos would tend to disagree) But we in the military realize that the ultimate sacrifice might have to be paid if we are to protect our Nation and our way of life.
To me it is a sad state of affairs when the military has to spend millions on advertising, give free college oppurtunities and give $12,000 bonuses just to try to squeeze a few enlistments out of the high schools.
In my lifetime I probably will not see world peace. Unfortunately, It is going to take the hard realistic steps to hope that my sons may see it in their lifetime. My oldest is 16 and he can't wait for 17 so that he can go into the military. I hope he never has to put himself in harms way. But I realize that it may happen and I am very proud of the fact that he of his own choice wants to do his part for his country. I refuse to pressure him and have let him know that whatever he chooses I will support. He cannot fathom why anyone would not want to do their part to protect their country.
To all of you that have served your country, you have my utmost respect and to all of you hippies, get off your dead asses and do your part. We in the military shouldn't have to carry you on our backs anymore. Of course in the words of Dennis Miller, "That's just my opinon...I could be wrong"

[Donna 0]

I did read your whole post, Herv because I like to read other people's views and I actually give them some thought as long as they make some sense which yours does. The one thing I can't help but comment on (even though my common sense tells me it will be a mistake and I should just shut up)

Quote

If my son attacks my other son I may scold him or place him on restriction.
But if he does it again, I'm going to spank him, he gets the message and stops his bad actions.

I know it's a whole other can of worms but can't you see the irony in what you are saying there. Your son hits your other son so you hit him to make him stop. That just reinforces solving problems by violence and hitting. You didn't teach your son anything but to make sure he is really the strongest first.
I do thank you and your son for wanting to serve our country. I appreciate it.
Skies,
D

[kaseybec 0]

Nice quote!!