Boomicowi desert

[Ninja 0]

(this is what my friend Ani said...this is his opinion and i find it a quite educated one ..and ya that's why i'm posting it)
"As of right this second, there isn't a shred of proof or even a
government backed unsubstantiated accusation against anyone. One small good that comes from such tragedies is that the bigots and hatemongers who generaly hide their views come out in the open...so for the bigots, without a shred of proof, 450 million Arabs and over 1 billion Muslims
have been indicted. Just like Oklahoma City...all the media was blaming Arabs and Muslims until they caught McVeigh. Then, even if it turns out to be an Arab or Muslim group who did this, which is purely speculation at this point, the bigots will continue to blame the entire ethnicity and/or religion simply because most Americans are too lazy and uneducated to learn the differences, which are just as diverse as those among "whites" and Christians. No one suggested after OKC that all white Protestants were represented by McVeigh...but its still acceptable to hate Arabs and Muslims collectively because most Americans are too lazy to learn anything about this 1/5 of humanity.
As for the positive reaction of the people on the street in
Palestine...just exactly what would one expect? For eleven months now, the US has been vetoing any action on behalf of Palestine while IDF terror troops use US made and supplied helicopter gunships and rockets to conduct large scale massacres against their people...lobbing US made
and supplied missiles into Palestinian refugee camps, US made and supplied machineguns to gun down stone throwing children, US made and supplied bulldozers to wipe out their farms so the land can be stolen by settlers. Just how would one expect the Palestinians to react?
Were the terrorist who attacked us today Palestinians? I doubt it, although no one knows yet. The fact is that there hasn't been a single Palestinian terrorist attack outside of Israel, the Occupied Territories, or the border areas of Israel since 1988. (One exception in Jordan). Most of the internal Palestinian groups (Hamas, Islamic Jihad, &c) are limited to that general area and incapable of a major operation in the US. The external Palestinian groups (PFLP, DFLP, &c) are largely dependent on state sponsorship (Syria, Iraq, et alia) and none of these states would allow such an operation bcause they know the US would bomb the shit out of them.
The number one suspect is O. bin Laden, a crazy Saudi millionaire in Afghanistan. Contrary to the view of the bigots, he has nothing whatsoever to do with Palestine or Palestinian groups (yep, utterly shocking that not all Arabs share the exact same viewpoint). Instead, he's a militant Wahhabi Muslim (a sect that doesn't even exist in Palestine) that views the West in general as a corrupting influence on Islam, and has a particular hatred for the United States. The attacks
today appear very similar to the coordinated attacks he arranged against the US in Africa a few years back. If he is responsible, we should definately get him, no doubt about it...but for now, its still just an "if".
The big problem here is that terrorist groups are not states...and being generally hidden, it becomes a very slow and time consuming process to find those guilty, especially when the actual terrorists themselves are dead, as is the case here. It could take months to sift through all the wreckage, identfy the terrorists, then back track their lives to find their friends and associates, et cetera. The problem here is that the public is demanding blood now, which almost negates a proper investigation...justice plays second chair to political expediency and public pressure...so chances are Bush will just bomb someone who seems likely, or at least possible. In which case, Bin Laden and gang in Afghanistan would appear to be the lesser of potential evils...and also works from a political-diplomatic angle since there are no real ramifications to bombing the shit out of Afghanistan(remember how much press attention our last cruise missile attack against Afghanistan got? We bombed the shit out of a former Soviet airbase, turned into a Pushtun shepherd village, and killed thirty some odd women and children since the men were out with the flocks at the time...virually no reporting of this here though)
So...whether guilty or not, I bet Bin Laden gets blamed...and guilty or not, this is least of possible revenge targets, so I have to support the notion, since to support anything else would be even worse. Bush has to kill someone and in view of this it might as well be bin Laden and gang."
"~Ani"

[NathanL100 0]

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there isn't a shred of proof

Have you been watching the news? There is some evidence that points towards arabs. They found a rental car with arabic writing in it, with flight manuals in it, and they found luggage with muslim or arabic bible (I don't know how to spell the real name keran or something) in it, flight manuals, and a fuel consumption calculator. Hmmm... that seem fairly conclusive to me.
I am personally very angry at who ever is behind this, I do not agree with any hate crimes against any American Arabs
PS. I might be using the wrong words in referencing Arabs, Muslim, etc.., so you'll have to excuse me for not know the proper words to use, but you get my point.
Did I Hear Someone Say BEER??
Nathan

[Ninja 0]

Maybe he wrote it before that evidence was found. I dont know!

[Michele 1]

Colin, good post. Let's talk.

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simply because most Americans are too lazy and uneducated to learn the differences, which are just as diverse as those among "whites" and Christians

.
I'm not "most americans". And I think that most people who read this post, here on these boards, are not "most americans", either. If you read through some of these threads, you will hear/read views which are strikingly similar to your friend Ani's. And frankly, I don't think that most Americans are lazy. We have an incredible country, and it was made on hard work - intellectually and manually. I don't think we are lazy. Uneducated? Perhaps unexposed to the Muslim and arabic cultures and thoughts/religions, but not uneducated.
His point about US supplied munitions and weapons etc. to the Israelis is well made. However, what about those weapons and munitions supplied to Palestine? Pakistan? Afghanistan? Syria? Lybia? ad nauseum.....the weapons are coming from somewhere, and it isn't just rocks..... I have never danced in the streets when someone in Palestine was killed, I have never passed out sweets to the neighborhood except at Hallowe'en. I don't expect anyone to react any way other than the way they have. And just because I don't expect differently doesn't mean that I am "o.k." with the fact they did it - I just expect no differently that people are pleased that American civilian blood was shed by the gallon yesterday.
This is a dynamic and constantly changing situation which we are discussing. While I do not know many Muslims, the few I know are not on jihad, and are willing to talk to me frankly and openly about their opinion as to what has occurred. Theya re willing to have me to dinner, and show me their culture, teach me about their foods. What I find most interesting, however, is the similarities that ALL races share: while there are differences, and some significant at that, the similarities are more striking: rice or pasta, cheddar or feta, it is food - we all need to eat. Kilts or trousers, obis or belts, they are clothes. Hut or teepee, mansion or shack, it is shelter.

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(yep, utterly shocking that not all Arabs share the exact same
viewpoint)

Of course not every arab shares the same view. And most Americans don't paint everyone with the same brush, either. One of the most treasured rights in this country is that we are different, and that we are allowed to be different - and this includes our opinions, as well.

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justice plays second chair to political expediency and public pressure...

Who's justice? American justice, with a trial and protection of the rights afforded Americans under our constitution? Or the Taliban justice, where someone can be put to death because their faith is different than that of the ruling political party which is in fact a religious dictatorship? Or perhaps Iranian and/or Iraqui justice, where women are killed for showing their face? Whose justice, Ninja? Whose justice?
As for it playing second chair, there have been several instances of justice done the American way......look what happened to the Lockerbie terrorists. They were tracked down, and years later were placed on trial in the international court of the Hague. We have a record of capturing and trying our suspects, too. Where is that in your friend's educated opinion?

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Bush has to kill someone and in view of this it might as well be bin Laden and gang."

Let's look at what has been discovered as of this evening (at least according to mainstream media, which may o may not have it exactly right....)
The terrorists left massive evidence in a rental car which was found at Logan airport. This evidence included a poster of Bin Ladin; arabic language fight manuals for '57 and '67's; aerial maps of NY and DC. Other evidence includes manifests showing significant leads of suspects which have been connected to Bin Ladin in the past with regards to the Cole bombing, and the African Embassy bombing; visas showing at least two suspects came from Afghanistan; education received in Florida which correlates with the two suspects just mentioned. Furthermore, there are several suspects which were arrested this morning in a Boston suburb (Copley?) which had significant evidence in their possession.
The truth of the matter is simply this: we were attacked yesterday. Whether some people believe we deserved it or not, we were attacked. Our civilians were killed in the thousands. This was a ruthless assault on the way of life in America. And these people began their attack from the ground of America, where they had the freedom to travel wherever they want, without scrutiny. They came into the country without scrutiny. They used the American system, the "great Satan America" whom they profess to hate, to plan, develop, and carry out this attack.
Look carefully at the targets selected. They are symbolic of all that is "hated" in America. Political and military might - the Pentagon is the center, the focal point of political and military strategy and planning, with the White House as an additional declared target, which is the home of our President. The WTC is the center of financial superiority, and a heretofore considered undestructible structure. New York City is the quintessential American big city....
And they launched the attack from our own country. Using our freedoms, and our laws. Using our lifestyle. This is terrorism at its' most effective.
We were attacked.
Your friend has an opinion. I have mine. Thanks for sharing his opinion. Thanks for reading mine.
Ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[Ninja 0]

Michele.
Thanks for replying!
I kinda wanted to spark some discussion.
Anyways. One thing I liked about his writing and one of the reasons why I posted it is his referral to Americans stereotyping all of a certain religion or national origin. Because one of the things I see right now are mainly people just pissed off not even thinking straight just wanting to go bomb countries. Now Im not down with that at all. It should take time and careful examination. Pretty much any violence is bad in my opinion. Also it gets into justice and all that yeh yeh which I have a viewpoint on yeah but justice is so controversial and it would take me awhile to type out. heh..
Another issue to look at is nationalism. I also don't agree with that. I'm a strong individual and while I may be thankful where I'm born I am not proud.
I don't think that whoever did the attack would be stupid enough to leave all that stuff behind in a car either. A picture of Bin Laden? I think that's just too obvious.
Aahhhh... I can't convey my thoughts right now very well!! Too excited for the weekend which will contain Stellar skydiving adventures!
Maybe I;m too lazy! That's why I posted my compadres Words which I agreed with somewhat.. hahaha

[Ninja 0]

Ugh... I just read my post and it doesn't express my thoughts at all... I need to learn how to convey them a little better. Heh.

[NathanL100 0]

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Another issue to look at is nationalism. I also don't agree with that. I'm a strong individual and while I may be thankful where I'm born I am not proud.

How can you say that you don't agree with nationalism? I and probably 99% of the world (you excluded) are proud of their country and I'm 100% sure that all americans are feeling more proud of their nation now than they ever have before as a result of the terrorist attacks. Maybe Canadians just don't get it, I don't know, but you really are walking a fine line by flaming nationalism.

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Pretty much any violence is bad in my opinion

How are we supposed to show people that they shouldn't mess with america unless we use violence. "An eye for an eye.."
Did I Hear Someone Say BEER??
Nathan

[NewGuy 0]

Ninja dude; I don't understand the need to stir the pot in the wake of such tragedy.

[Michele 1]

Hey, Colin

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his referral to Americans stereotyping all of a certain religion or national origin.

Um, isn't that exactly what your friend did to americans? "Most americans this", "most americans that". Which is stereotyping.

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Another issue to look at is nationalism.

O.k., let's talk about nationalism. The definition of nationalism is: "the devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation."
As a matter of fact, I AM proud that I am American. I live in an incredible, wonderful, and yes, powerful country. Does that mean that everything we do is right? No. Does that mean I think this is the best place to live, and bring my babies into the world? Absolutely. Do I choose to live here? You bet. Why? Because I am proud. Proud of what we stand for, proud of how we are willing to help everyone when they need it whether they reciprocate or not. Proud? Yes. Will I back my nation in this time of crisis? Yes. But perhaps that isn't actually nationalism, but patriotism. Howeverr, being proud of my country does NOT mean that other people are ""worse", or "less". It simply means that I am proud of what my country stands for.
Keep in mind that it is nationalism which created the terrorists, from wherever thay came from. Their devotion to a culture which promulgates this behavior and this thought process. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that they think they are doing something which will promote their cause/culture. But I'll bet an equal amount that they have no patriotism.

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Maybe I;m too lazy

Then don't post something which calls Americans lazy (lol-hahahahaha). Have a great weekend jumping. I hope I can get in the air, but that may not occur.
ciels-
Michele
"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~

[NathanL100 0]

Thank You Newguy and Michele!!! Ninja, please think before you open your mouth. Everyone is very sensitive (me included) and your going to get into it with a lot of people if you keep this up.
Did I Hear Someone Say BEER??
Nathan

[Ninja 0]

Okokokok
Im not trying to offend anyone here at all..
As for my opinion on nationalism.. Maybe feeling proud and patriotic towards your country is more of an instinct.. Seems humans are pretty territorial as it is.. I try and look at things more logically and.. The way I see it.. Where I'm born. I had nothing to do with how this country is the way it is today. There shouldn't even be any borders. And whether or not anybody thinks they have a say in how the country is run I don't think so. With about 40% (could be a little off) of the population voting and Bush winning by how many votes? So 20% of the population voted for bush.. Democracy is working full on right?!
I don't know why people are getting mad at me... It's not like I agree with those terrorists and their actions.. Not at all. It was horrible.. Lets just say I don't particularly agree with how the government works.
I do think before I speak my mind on here maybe you just interpret it wrong..
Anyways here is something written by Noam Chomsky.. Hes not saying America deserved it maybe just saying that its understandable how it happened.
"Today's attacks were major atrocities. In terms of number of victims they do not reach the level of many others, for example, Clinton's bombing of the Sudan with no credible pretext, destroying half its pharmaceutical supplies and probably killing tens of thousands of people (no one knows, because the US blocked an inquiry at the UN and no one cares to pursue it). Not to speak of much worse cases, which easily come to mind. But that this was a horrendous crime is not in doubt. The primary victims, as usual, were working people: janitors, secretaries, firemen, etc. It is likely to prove to be a crushing blow to Palestinians and other poor and oppressed people. It is also likely to lead to harsh security controls, with many possible ramifications for undermining civil liberties and internal freedom.
The events reveal, dramatically, the foolishness of ideas about "missile defense." As has been obvious all along, and pointed out repeatedly by strategic analysts, if anyone wants to cause immense damage in the US, including weapons of mass destruction, they are highly unlikely to launch a missile attack, thus guaranteeing their immediate destruction. There are innumerable easier ways that are basically unstoppable. But today's events will, nonetheless, be used to increase the pressure to develop these systems and put them into place. "Defense" is a thin cover for plans for militarization of space, and with good PR, even the flimsiest arguments will carry some weight among a frightened public. In short, the crime is a gift to the hard jingoist right, those who hope to use force to control their domains. That is even putting aside the likely US actions, and what they will trigger -- possibly more attacks like this one, or worse. The prospects ahead are even more ominous than they appeared to be before the latest atrocities.
Noam Chomsky "

[Ninja 0]

http://www.zmag.org/reactionscalam.htm
Here are some good articles well written that seem to have my same viewpoint.