100 jump wonders/coaches

[labrys 0]

Quote

You don't actually learn much in the Coach's Course, the term "Course" is a bit of a misnomer.

Ouch. The 3 12 hour days I spent in the "non-course" were pretty educational, IMO.

Edit. That did NOT include the ground prep and evaluations done later after the classroom time

Owned by Remi #?

[DSE 5]

Assuming of course, that they pass the A license at jump 25

[tdog 0]

Quote

Quote

I dont think I am doing it to coach though .I just want to learn more .

You don't actually learn much in the Coach's Course, the term "Course" is a bit of a misnomer. It should be called "Coach's Evaluation". You are supposed to show up with the knowledge and skills required to coach the appropriate levels. You then review the course material and establish the evaluation guidlines by which you'll be tested.

Taking the course for the purposes of learning is a waste of your time. If you want to learn about coaching then read a book on the subject.

A poor coach course director might teach that way - but the IRM and the coach course outline has multiple pages of concepts to be taught to candidates... For an example, primacy-recency, 80/20, whole/part/whole, etc...

Ya, you won't learn how to fly in the course, but you will learn to teach (better) if your director is any good at teaching him or herself... A good in air evaluator will also help you fly better with students in their debriefs.

[DJL 235]

Quote

Quote

You don't actually learn much in the Coach's Course, the term "Course" is a bit of a misnomer.

Ouch. The 3 12 hour days I spent in the "non-course" were pretty educational, IMO.

Edit. That did NOT include the ground prep and evaluations done later after the classroom time

As were the hours I spent; I learned alot because the course answered questions I already had. I'll use the phrase "Teaching is a learning experience". You can't possibly learn all that you need in those 36 compressed hours of class and you also didn't retain all that was in your class. It's a poor medium in which to learn. You basically learned what you need to know to pass the eval. The entire reason that you're supposed to show up with test already completed is because you must have spent time studying and learning BEFORE you get there.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[labrys 0]

Quote

Ya, you won't learn how to fly in the course

I think that depends a great deal on how you yourself were taught in combination with how the course is taught. I took the combined USPA/SDU course. I've heard that more SDU style coaching is being integrated into the USPA course. That might not be happening everywhere.

If you've never been exposed to the SDU style coaching I think that you could certainly become a better flyer by learning and applying the techiques to your own jumps. Just my experience.

Owned by Remi #?

[labrys 0]

Quote

As were the hours I spent; I learned alot because the course answered questions I already had. I'll use the phrase "Teaching is a learning experience". You can't possibly learn all that you need in those 36 compressed hours of class and you also didn't retain all that was in your class. It's a poor medium in which to learn. You basically learned what you need to know to pass the eval. The entire reason that you're supposed to show up with test already completed is because you must have spent time studying and learning BEFORE you get there.

I don't agree. How can you possibly know what I learned and what I got out of the course I took? How could you know what I did and did not retain and how could you claim to know that I only learned enough to pass an eval. And what makes you think I didn't read the IRM, the SIM, and take both the tests before I arrived? WTH makes you imply that I didn't? We've never even met.

Feel free to recount your own experiences, they may be helpful to someone, but don't try to tell me whether a course you didn't attend was helpful to a person you never met.

Owned by Remi #?

[DJL 235]

Holy Internet Gone Wild. I'm not questioning you, Kelly. I'm describing what the USPA coach's course is. A three day class is no where to learn. That's why it's required/requested that you learn items in the IRM and show up with a certain skill set. You owe me beer go going internet beserk on my shit. Sam Adams White Ale, please.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[labrys 0]

Well Doug.... I'd NEVER refuse any reason to drink beer.

I think we got different mileage from the course. I guess nitpicking that's not really going to be productive in the context of the OP. I'm off to the store for the beer.

Owned by Remi #?

[LordRatner 0]

So, here is what I've gathered from this thread:

- There is a huge difference between 25 jumps and 7 jumps. At 7 jumps, an AFF graduate is too dangerous to be trusted with a tested 100 jump coach, but at 25 jumps they are safe enough to be trusted with other 25 jumps A license holders

- At 100 jumps, you cannot be qualified to coach. Even with hours of tunnel time, great teaching skills, and the recommendation of other instructors, you are not good enough to maintain a constant fall rate with a jumper who has performed well enough to graduate AFF.

- Coaching is the same as AFF, since both should require about the same amount of experience.

- If you have seen one person set a bad example as a coach, they are a fair representation of the entire coaching community. (By the way, using this logic, all of you are shitty skydivers. Sorry)

- 1,000 jumps doesn't mean shit. Are you kidding me? Has skydiving gotten into such a submissive state of mind that someone with 1,000 jumps is going to say it doesn't mean anything? Sorry, but if you've done something 1,000 times and your best assessment of your skills is "shit," take up bowling. There is a difference between knowing one's ability and continuing to learn, and disregarding any experience level if there is someone with more jumps.


Yes I know I'm one of those "100 jump wonders" and some of you will disregard anything I say because of it, which is fine, because ignorant people detract from a discussion anyways. But it looks like a lot of jumpers with a lot of jumps are putting a freefall's-time worth of thought into this or less.

"I don't think anyone with 100 jumps is qualified to coach" Well maybe you were just shitty at 100 jumps, or maybe you were good, certainly good enough to coach, but have gotten so much better that you refuse to believe you were any good so long ago. Or maybe admitting a 100-jump-wonder is good enough to coach is hurting your ego, because you think it downplays your 8,000 jumps. I honestly can't tell why this opinion exists.

Consider this: With the exception of one of my instructors (who had fewer jumps than any other AFF instructor at the time), it was my coaches, and other sub-200-jump skydivers that kept me in the sport long enough to start jumping with people with way more jumps. This is true for many of my friends too.

[DSE 5]

well said.

[wsinsel 0]

Lord Ratner,

I agree with you fully. I'm one of the older guys and I was putting students out of the airplane as a jumpmaster with.......uh...I think 50 jumps? I think that's correct. The older I get the shorter my memory is. Anyway, I don't think I was unsafe as a jumpmaster because of my low jump numbers. I had a real passion to learn everything I could about being a good jumpmaster and my superiors were more than willing to teach me what they knew and they helped me to become a good instructor. I think the only time low jump numbers detract from the overall conception of another skydiver is when the "know-it-all" attitude is brought to bear on all of us who have already seen a few skydives. I certainly do not know everything and I can see that I might stll learn some really useful information from people who are younger and have less jumps. I encourage those who are willing to learn to share what they think they know with the rest of us. To be really familiar with anything, one has to teach it. You cannot just drag coaches, riggers, pilots and instructors out of a crowd and tag them as such. They all had to learn this somewhere.

"It's very important at this point that you don't simply become a passenger." Flight instructor Dennis Anderson speaking about life and crosswind landings.

[mnskydiver688 0]

Quote

So, here is what I've gathered from this thread:

- There is a huge difference between 25 jumps and 7 jumps. At 7 jumps, an AFF graduate is too dangerous to be trusted with a tested 100 jump coach, but at 25 jumps they are safe enough to be trusted with other 25 jumps A license holders

Excellent Point!

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters

[billvon 2,989]

>There is a huge difference between 25 jumps and 7 jumps. At 7 jumps,
>an AFF graduate is too dangerous to be trusted with a tested 100 jump
>coach, but at 25 jumps they are safe enough to be trusted with other 25
>jumps A license holders

I know you're trying to be funny here, but that's really how it works. In AFF, during your first jump, you need TWO jumpmasters primarily because no one really knows what you're going to do. After a few jumps, that becomes one JM because you've proven yourself a bit. You can't decide what you want to do on the jump, but at least he's letting you fly on your own. After 7 jumps, you no longer need a JM on the jump with you, and you can choose what you want to do within some limits, but you still need supervision/guidance. At 25 jumps you can do more on your own, now almost completely unsupervised (other than by the local S+TA, and the AFF-I who is going to sign off your license apps.)

It's a gradual progression, of course, and the breakpoints (4 jumps, 7 jumps, 25 jumps) are not the same for everyone. It merely represents our best attempt at a common level of experience to require for jumpers.

The coach rating is, of course, an attempt to provide some effective guidance at the 7-25 jump level, when jumpers are cleared to jump without _direct_ supervision but can still use a lot of advice/help.

[mdrejhon 8]

Well, I would hope that 200 jumps (very RW focussed) and 1.25 hours of tunnel time would make me a good enough skydiver to be a coach -- that's one of my goals for this summer...

I am not interested in earning money being a coach, I just want to be able to jump with 50-jump and 75-jump Canadians who don't even have an A license just because they are too "lazy" to get a license ("lazy" not in the unsafe way, of course), or the paperwork takes more time (getting the right people to sign off on things), having to repeat a certain exercise because it wasn't caught on camera, etc... I can most certainly handle these "get my A when I get around to it" skydivers now - and get the hell out of the way fast enough if they fly under me. I have now recently jumped with lower-jump A license holders who perform worse, and still manage to match their fallrate enough to dock a few points to make them happy (even if I'm not as fast as AFF instructors)... Often getting a license takes a little more time at many Cessna dropzones around here, many of us don't have A licenses until well beyond our 50th jump, even if we qualify well before our 25th jump. It wasn't until I had around 80 jumps before I finally got my A (then again, I also got my B during the same month)

Then again, I will eventually want to fly with my better half at some point before the A license, since finding a coach is sometimes hard to find, especially on a busy weekend... And nearly all of them jump with AAD's, so there's really no need for me to chase anyone (including my loved one) below hard deck (and get myself killed) -- even I know the AAD is more "reliable" than a human chasing a tumbling freefaller to under 1000 feet....

I realize I do need to disclaim advice and refer to their instructors, especially if they're still receiving instruction. It's not my place to be an instructor anyway...

There's a risk to all skydiving activity, I'm sure what I want to do (jump mainly with 50 jump freefallers who don't yet have A license), once I pass any decent coach course, is probably safer than starting to learn to swoop, anyway... (of course - some might disagree )

[ozzy13 0]

In AFF, during your first jump, you need TWO jumpmasters primarily because no one really knows what you're going to do. After a few jumps, that becomes one JM because you've proven yourself a bit.

I dont know where you jump but at my home DZ there was only one AFFI for all 7 jumps

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[PeterB 0]

Dude, take your attitude somewhere else. Feel free to disagree but that disrespectful nonsense is just stupid. It's the attitude of a 100 jump wonder. My guess is the sport will find a way to eat humble pie. Happened to me. Still happens to me.

Quote

- There is a huge difference between 25 jumps and 7 jumps. At 7 jumps, an AFF graduate is too dangerous to be trusted with a tested 100 jump coach, but at 25 jumps they are safe enough to be trusted with other 25 jumps A license holders

In the US, yeah. Not where I jump. Higher jump requirement here as well as getting a formal certification from the national skydiving association that clear you to jump with others. And no, you can't get that cert by jumping with 100 jump wonders.

Quote

- At 100 jumps, you cannot be qualified to coach.

Average mean distribution. There are a very small percentage who at 100 jump have good air skills. Even fewer who have that and a natural ability to teach. Even then they only have 100 jumps of actual skydiving experience. The distribution of averages suggests that there are as many sucky instructors @ 100 jumps as there are @ 1000. The difference is that @ 1000 the instructors has ten times more experience to make up for deficiencies.

Quote

- Coaching is the same as AFF, since both should require about the same amount of experience.

Apparently your deduction skills aren't up to par with your jumping skills.

Quote

- If you have seen one person set a bad example as a coach, they are a fair representation of the entire coaching community. (By the way, using this logic, all of you are shitty skydivers. Sorry)

And by using earlier your example we were all Gods own instructors @ 100 jumps with shitloads of tunnel time and recommendations from all the other instructors. Make up your mind about a point. You're countering one of your former ones.

Quote

- 1,000 jumps doesn't mean shit. Are you kidding me? Has skydiving gotten into such a submissive state of mind that someone with 1,000 jumps is going to say it doesn't mean anything?

Inadequate reading skills. There's a difference between ain't shit and doesn't mean shit.
1000 jumps is not that much. I got that in three years and I wasn't even pushing it.

Quote

Sorry, but if you've done something 1,000 times and your best assessment of your skills is "shit," take up bowling.

Dude your reading and deduction abilities need some serious work. You're making leaps of logic and inserting words that aren't there like the world is about to run out of 'em.

1000 jumps is not much experience.
Skill can amongst other things be assessed relative to experience or relative to the world champions. I can do all 21 moves in the 2007 freefly money meet dive pool. I'm satisfied with my skills. When I saw the Babylon dudes 'live', I got a bit depressed about how far I still have to go. Now back on topic please?

Quote

There is a difference between knowing one's ability and continuing to learn, and disregarding any experience level if there is someone with more jumps.

And conversely, when someone with ten times more experience than you politely makes a few points you disagree with, don't counter with strawmen and an attitude. Address the issues rather than construct strawmen that aren't there to begin with.

Quote

Yes I know I'm one of those "100 jump wonders" and some of you will disregard anything I say because of it, which is fine, because ignorant people detract from a discussion anyways.

No, I'll disregard most of what you said because you're missing the point, construct phantom arguments and come into it all with an attitude problem.

Your last few paragraphs have merit and some good points. It's too bad they kind of get lost in the the rant above that is basically lots of logical fallacies based on intentionally misconstruing someone elses points.

I've said what I wanted to say. Peace.

--
Peter

[popsjumper 2]

Peter :
You're last post pretty much tells me that I would NEVER use you as a Coach; I don't care HOW many jumps you have. A different attitude and presentation would most likely be beneficial; that one completely turned me off.

mdrejhon :
I didn’t see any mention of one of the most important parts of Coaching – teaching skills.
Do you know your subject matter inside and out?
Can you adequately assess the student’s best learning method?
Can you relay information in that best-learning mode?
Can you teach in a clear and concise manner?
How’s your verbal skills?
Can you present in an attention-keeping manner?
Can you address a student in a non-condescending tone?
…oh, there’s so much more.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I dont know where you jump but at my home DZ there was only one AFFI for all 7 jumps

Is that a USPA DZ?
-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[AFFI 0]

If you are still in the sport 10 years and or 3,000 jumps from now, you may feel differently.

Let's say you stay in the sport another decade, and have 3,000 more jumps, by that time, it is very likely that you would have forgotten more about skydiving than you have learned so far at your current experience level.

-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

Quote

I dont know where you jump but at my home DZ there was only one AFFI for all 7 jumps

Is that a USPA DZ?
-[/reply

Yes it is ..At the end of the year there were 25 students and only one AFFI.I did all 7 levels with one AFFI

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

• Quote

[tetra316 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I dont know where you jump but at my home DZ there was only one AFFI for all 7 jumps

Is that a USPA DZ?
-[/reply

Yes it is ..At the end of the year there were 25 students and only one AFFI.I did all 7 levels with one AFFI

I would say one vs two AFFI is dependent on the type of AFF program you have. I know a lot of USPA dz's who have students do 1-3 tandems before AFF. Then all the AFF jumps are done with one instructor. Otherwise straight AFF usually uses 2 instructors.

• Quote

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

I didn’t see any mention of one of the most important parts of Coaching – teaching skills.
Do you know your subject matter inside and out?
Can you adequately assess the student’s best learning method?
Can you relay information in that best-learning mode?
Can you teach in a clear and concise manner?
How’s your verbal skills?
Can you present in an attention-keeping manner?
Can you address a student in a non-condescending tone?
…oh, there’s so much more.

Correct. These are evaluations I will ask myself upon taking the coach course, and if I don't meet them, I'm not going to press forward with coaching. One possible shortcoming I do have, is my verbal skills: I am deaf! However, I am pretty expressive. However, there are many deaf skydivers at www.deafskydivers.org that have become coaches, and even AFF's. However, I have no plan to AFF, and I do feel I do well in English on keyboard or paper. In the event if the student's English reading/sign skill is poor, I'm not going to be coaching them anyway - not safe for me anyway...

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Correct. These are evaluations I will ask myself upon taking the coach course, and if I don't meet them, I'm not going to press forward with coaching...

I applaud your postive, thoughtful and unselfish approach to this. I see no issue that you can't overcome to be a good Coach or Instructor.

I had one deaf student so far and we had Billy Vance come in to "translate" (my word) and "facilitate" (Billy's word). The student was highly successful. Billy's assistance made it all very easy.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

I dont know where you jump but at my home DZ there was only one AFFI for all 7 jumps

Is that a USPA DZ?
-[/reply

Yes it is ..At the end of the year there were 25 students and only one AFFI.I did all 7 levels with one AFFI

I would say one vs two AFFI is dependent on the type of AFF program you have. I know a lot of USPA dz's who have students do 1-3 tandems before AFF. Then all the AFF jumps are done with one instructor. Otherwise straight AFF usually uses 2 instructors.

That's exactly what we do, 3 tandems, then 1 AFFI for all the levels.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

• Quote

[ozzy13 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

I dont know where you jump but at my home DZ there was only one AFFI for all 7 jumps

Is that a USPA DZ?
-[/reply

Yes it is ..At the end of the year there were 25 students and only one AFFI.I did all 7 levels with one AFFI

I would say one vs two AFFI is dependent on the type of AFF program you have. I know a lot of USPA dz's who have students do 1-3 tandems before AFF. Then all the AFF jumps are done with one instructor. Otherwise straight AFF usually uses 2 instructors.

That what I had to do ..Three Tandems before AFF

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

• Quote