Slowfaller 0 #26 July 6, 2001 QuoteI just wonder how much is too much for students to pay in order to get off student status? I think there is a price where we will push lots of people away? What do others think of this?Well, Call me an idiot; I didnt even know there was an AFF program out there until I was well into my AFP program. The first impression I received from Skydive Chicago made me think " This is where I'm going to learn to skydive!! " Didnt even think twice. I think that would be the same for a lot of students who visit Skydive Chicago. The place just kicks a$$!! I'm not putting any other DZ's down or anything, so please don't be offended. As the saying goes, " Try it, you'll like it. "Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #27 July 6, 2001 This is what you new guys are brought up to think. It is absoulute horse-shit that people are sent out into the sport without having the knowledge of how to pack their own goddamn parachute. At our club, and the other one just like it on our DZ, you do not make your first skydive until you are cleared to pack your own main. That means you recieve the packing class, do a couple of hours of "walk-thru, talk-thru", then you complete five supervised pack-jobs. We have a stamp we put in a student's logbook that gets initialed after each successful pack. Do not feel bad about packers. Yes, they make their living from doing that, but it is absolutely not your moral responsibility to pay them to do a job you should be doing yourself. Lazy rich people at big DZ's make it very easy for these people to make money like this. They need to get off their asses and get some RATINGS. I equate packers to the people on the corners in big cities who try and wash your windshield. The ONLY people who actually need these services are the full-time teams who are making 12 or more jumps a day and need to debrief in between jumps. That, and tandem operations at very busy DZ's, but then again, I would never let anyone pack one of my tandems; it is technically against the manufacturers regs unless the packer is an FAA rigger. Plus, I have never packed a malfunction, but every packer I know has packed plenty. It is best to do it yourself..period. And Michelle, while video is nice, it is absolutely not terribly important unless you are a bad student. The DZ will TELL you you need it, but in fact they just really want your money. The caveat there, of course, is if you have a bad jump. The money you save by not spending it on video when you are doing perfectly fine could be spent on the make-up of a bad level. Anyone reading this can feel free to come to Raeford, North Carolina for free packing classes, RW coaching (just pay my lift), or what the hell ever else you need. Really. I don't need the money, I have a good job. Most everyone I know here with ratings just likes to give back to the sport. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #28 July 6, 2001 Hi, SkymonkeyI must have miswritten somehow, and I should clear it up - I was not told to have the video, no one has ever insisted that I should have it, but I want it. And I am not sure I am a great student, but I am not a bad student (have not had a form correction since the first time in the air). I choose to have the video for several reasons. First, I am a visual learner, and can see my mistakes in the air which serves to teach me about symmetry, balance, and so forth. Because of this, I can make the corrections in my head to stop a potential problem before it becomes an issue for me. Second, my mother is back east and I want her to see me doing this, and she can't be here to come with me to the DZ; and thirdly, because the video feeds my addiction (which is a good thing, right?).When I rejumped level 3 after my mal, I chose to not have the vid guy with me. Why? Because it presents a distraction that I did not want to deal with right then. Furthermore, I asked my vid guy on level 4 to please stay to the side, so I could focus on my jm, and literally block him out. He did, I did, and life was fine.It's an option I chose; and while I am lucky enough to have the funds to do it right now, I know that many people don't; you are so absolutely spot on when you say that they should not insist - and they haven't, not once. And I am sure that I will not vid every jump I ever make. But right now, when I am learning what my body does in the air, I find it an invaluable asset. Hope that clears it up for you. I appreciate your intention as to not have me (or anyone else) taken advantage of - and if you're ever around Perris, let me know. ciel bleu, Michele Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mouth 0 #29 July 6, 2001 I'm with Michele that the video is a great learning tool for us visual learners. I didn't have it on any of my AFF jumps but did on my first solo....it was the funniest thing I have ever seen. I could see what th JM's were talking about finally. I looked and thought to myself...you really need to work on that form girl...and yes, Russ, I know...LEGS OUT! I could see what I was doing. Thankfully they don't insist on video for your program jumps, but if you can afford it the learning acquired is second to none. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Grogs 0 #30 July 6, 2001 QuoteDo not feel bad about packers. Yes, they make their living from doing that, but it is absolutely not your moral responsibility to pay them to do a job you should be doing yourself. Lazy rich people at big DZ's make it very easy for these people to make money like this. They need to get off their asses and get some RATINGS.Ouch, that hurts Chuck. All the packers I know (myself included) pack because they don't have enough jumps to get a rating, and in order to get enough jumps they pack to feed their habit. I actually did get a Coach rating recently, but it doesn't really pay anything, just gets me a free jump every now and then.QuoteThis is what you new guys are brought up to think. It is absoulute horse-shit that people are sent out into the sport without having the knowledge of how to pack their own goddamn parachute. At our club, and the other one just like it on our DZ, you do not make your first skydive until you are cleared to pack your own main. That means you recieve the packing class, do a couple of hours of "walk-thru, talk-thru", then you complete five supervised pack-jobs. We have a stamp we put in a student's logbook that gets initialed after each successful pack. I think that's great, but how's your retention rate? I think somewhere around 80-90% of our first jump students only make one jump and then never come back. That seems like a crazy amount of effort to invest on someone who's never going to jump again. On the other hand, maybe by doing it he/she feels more involved in the skydive and decides to continue along because of the personal attention. I believe there is a correlation between the treatment a student gets and whether or not they continue in the sport. On the other hand, it's only so much. Some people have no intention of ever coming back a 2nd time.I agree completely about students not having to pay for a packing class though. I just grabbed a beer and got together with one of my jumpmasters one Saturday night and we went over packing. I also came out in the middle of the week and spent several hours with our master rigger working on it. I pretty much make the same offer to upcoming jumpers. I'm always happy to hang out Saturday night and go over packing with someone (a rigger will still have to sign them off though). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sblue 0 #31 July 6, 2001 Well I come from a mostly SL DZ, so here are our northern prices to compare to the big places on the coasts...SL FJC $159SL 2-5 $49 ea (PRCP's and such)Freefalls (1-5sec,2-10sec, 2-15sec, 2-30sec and 2-45sec) $59 eaGraduation from Student Program. If you are not cleared to pack with our free instruction program, you are grounded until you are. At this point, us instructors have no pity on your delaying asses so we usually charge beer to help you finish the packing card.One on One coaching jumps - $49 ea.Total cost of jumps to your A license - $1425This includes all gear rental and training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #32 July 6, 2001 Grogs,don't be put-off by my comments. As long as there are people willing to pay for packers, you are safe in that capacity. Still, concerning jump numbers for ratings: you need exactly zero skydives to get an FAA rigger ticket. You can apprentice under another rigger for free, and get the needed experience to pass the practical test in under a month. Now THAT rating will do a lot for the sport and for your wallet. You just can't have enough riggers around. As for retention, we keep all of them around long enough for us to warrant giving them one joint packing class. That means that we, the instructor and rigger staff, don't get saddled with packing for these kids. We have WAY too many students to be having to pack for them.Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
russ 0 #34 July 9, 2001 i'm doing RAPS (ram air progression) in the UK, the first jump course was £130 then i have done 14 more jumps @ £35 each. i have got my packing certificate as well the training course for that was £40. this totals £660 already plus some kit that i have bought (gloves, goggles, jumpsuit)i am currently on 15 second freefalls, so will have to do another 10-15 jumps so it will cost a total of £1010 - £1185 to get my licence, then the enevitable fortune to get my own rig. i still think it will work out cheaper than doing an AFF course though, coz they cost £1300 in the UK, plus you have to do 10 consolidation jumps afterwards.now i am a packer though i get £4 for every club rig that i pack.... this can make it much cheaper as long as you put the work in!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #35 July 13, 2001 bringing it up for the benefit of whatshisname.....ciel bleu-Michele Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #36 July 13, 2001 Chuck, Too bad all your students get run off by the scary golden knights!!! (ok, before you freak, i'm kidding!!!)Raeford really sounds like to me it has the best training method (i have jumped there, solo on a load of HALOs, man that was wierd). Pretty much the cost structure of the student program goes into the financials of the Drop Zone. The Fact is, most dz's make profits off students, and couldn't survive without students. they don't make enough money off experienced jumpers. but there's really no way around it. everyone to get to the point of being A licensed has to pay out the ass, not understanding why until you sell your soul to skydiving anyway... then you get it. As for me, shit, i've lost track. did static line progression 4 years ago, took 2 years to get my A. in the process i floated from my home dz to 2 others, at which, one raped me becuase i wasn't "cleared for solo" at 13 jumps and already having done a 4-way, proved stability and tracking and all that, never failed a step and completed all manuever dives early, but made me pay a "retrain" for $50 and for AFF level VII at $150, the one jump cost me $200... but i had to jump. i'm not bitter. on the flip side, another place i went to with less than 20 jumps lent me free gear, charged me a normal ticket ($17) and a guy jumped with me to just make sure i knew what i was doing, turned into a free coach jump following to the next one with a successful 4 way launch from a cesna 182, all still under 20 total jumps. oh, and that nice guy (thanks a million joe) taught me his way of packing as well...speaking of packing - i'm all about packing my own. I never paid for a pack job, besides student rentals, until i got my brand new safire, what a slippery bastard. I must admit, i wanted to make a 20 minute call and dirt dive, so i've resorted to a couple paid packjobs and offers from friends (riggers), and most of the time, "can you just please help me put this b#*@$& in the bag", "THANK YOU!!!". but it's getting easier to pack. and i still go back to believing packing is an integral part of being a skydiver, you jump, you pack. that's it. always paying for a packer is like cheating if you ask me. and besides, whom do you trust most with your life?(ps i must add a thank you to bobo and treeboy for the guys from SGC who know me, they've helped me with my new canopy and i appreciate it sincerely)oh yeah, my point was, you can't half ass being a skydiver, all your heart money and free time go into it. i think the point of this thread was $$$ - shoot... hmmm... 4 years, 309 jumps, 1 (very expensive) BASE jump... Quincy... Richmond... one used complete rig... a cypress... a new complete rig... probably around 10K or more...SO, does anyone want to buy a SweetHog with a Falcon 235 main and Raven 3 reserve, classic colors, in great condition, less than 300 jumps, 0 reserve rides, i can't pack a mal in that if i try. i need the money "visa, it's everywhere"lew Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thumper 0 #37 July 15, 2001 S/L progression4 jumps @ skydive AZ Incl. G/S =$22016 jumps@ Spearfish SD Incl. refresher $42ea = $692total = $892 using student gear and not incl. license or membership fees.After license about $30/day for rental (U pack) and $15 per jump ticket.True, S/L takes longer than AFF, but in my opinion it's a better deal. More flight time for less $$$ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #38 July 15, 2001 SkymonkeeONEYou are so far behind the times when you say"You can apprentice under another rigger for free."Sorry, it took me 17 years to get to where I am today as a rigger.My time is worth more than $25 per hour. If you think you can have my time for free you are smoking rope! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyhawk 2 #39 July 15, 2001 hmm you all have it easy6 months in sportaff60 jumpsown gear - usedbeerover $10 000 australianpretty goods seing i only made $7000 this yearalot of it is our crap dollar jump tiket over $30 $5000 on gear, very second hand Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
