Recommended Posts
Rob... agree with the first part of your statement... not going to touch the last part.
Anyway, I've certainly gotten out of a Cessna many a time on a hop-n-pop without a cut...
... or had the pilot push me out without a cut... 
The thing I would be leary of is getting out of certain aircraft under climb power and in a climb attitude for fear of the possibility of hitting the tail depending on what you did on exit... i.e. "jump up"... I've seen more then one King Air with a patch on the leading edge of the left horizontal from where a skydiver hit it on exit... I know of a Twin Otter too that has a simlar patch on the leading edge of its horizontal... but that was from a surf board hitting it...
Anyway, I've certainly gotten out of a Cessna many a time on a hop-n-pop without a cut...
... or had the pilot push me out without a cut...
The thing I would be leary of is getting out of certain aircraft under climb power and in a climb attitude for fear of the possibility of hitting the tail depending on what you did on exit... i.e. "jump up"... I've seen more then one King Air with a patch on the leading edge of the left horizontal from where a skydiver hit it on exit... I know of a Twin Otter too that has a simlar patch on the leading edge of its horizontal... but that was from a surf board hitting it...
Quote1) When you say twice the rate... what do you really mean. Do you really mean twice that per flight hour of all other Part 91 flight hours or have you thrown in major air carriers and all the hours they operate as well? Same thing, different words... I'd like to see the math and the data that went into the formula?
In the mid nineties the FAA and USPA attempted to come up with a number of hours the entire jump fleet operated per year. It was said to be about 100,000 hours. Now, all of GA has millions of hours combined so accident rates are usually related to two things: accidents/100K hours of flying ; accidents/cycles (takeoff to landing is one cycle). GA is said to have an accident rate per 100K hours of about 6.0. That's 6 accidents per 100K hours of flying. During the mid nineties you will see we some times had triple that number.
Quote2) Did you eliminate incidents or "crashes" primarily attibuted to mechanical failure? i.e. Maybe we need better jump plane maintainers?
Why would I eliminate that? If the Mx is bad due to lack of caring in the skydiving industry then it has EVERYTHING to do with skydiving. So, no, I don't eliminate those accidents as they are a very important number to knowing the risk of flying jumpers. There's more to a skydiving jump plane accident than just did someone deploy over the tail or hit it on exit. Do you eliminate hook turn accidents from skydiving accidents since they had a deployed parachute over their head?
Quote3) Did you eliminate non-jump general aviation incidents that occured under conditions not directly comparable to that under which jump ops typically occur?
I'm really not sure what you were asking here. Could you clearify or give an example of what you mean?
Quote4) Did you try to break down your data by aircraft type? For example, take the accident rate of Twin Otters per hours flown performing jump ops and compare that to the accident rate of Twin Otters per flight hour used for passenger and cargo transport... of the same for the family of Cessna aircraft typically used for jump ops also widly used in general aviation... maybe you'll find some of the aircraft we typically use for jump ops are less reliable then others, thus inflating the stats.
I have not broken the numbers down by aircraft type yet. However, I can tell you that you will find more 182s in total number of accidents than large turbines (for most years but there are exceptions). There are more 182s operating flying jumpers than any other single aircraft type. Now, what brings down a 182 jump plane typically may not bring down a twin otter.... or will it? 182s run out of gas. Twin Otters have run out of gas. Seems pretty straight forward you need to put on gas to keep flying until you can make a controlled landing. Is it an aircraft issue or a skydiving industry mentallity? That's what I'm getting at when I give these lists and statistics. You seem to want to cut things out so it doesn't seem so bad. I put it all together and say "here is the real risk if you are a jump pilot."
I have no illusions that people will always argue with my ascertions and postings. But it seems you haven't read my website yet. So, please, read it. Read all of the accident reports (at least the past 10 years worth) and then tell me if you think we do a good job as an industry or do we need to do better?
One last thing, USPA does not include in it's yearly statistics for jump plane accidents ferry flights and maintenance (Mx) flights. They believe that if there were no jumpers on board at takeoff then it wasn't a jump plane accident. I have always ascerted that these accidents have EVERYTHING to do with skydiving as it is the industry that has put these planes and pilots in the precarious position they often find themselves. Lack of training. Lack of Mx. Lack of support to make a sound decision and back the pilot up to say no to an operation.
I started my postings on this in 1998 after 5 friends died in a 206 accident. I said the industry was headed for real problems. I was scoffed at. 1999 was one of the deadliest years for jump plane accidents and one of the highest totals. I have made this one of my life's works to bring information forward and have it available anytime for review on my website. You can even post comments there.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
QuoteWhy would I eliminate that? If the Mx is bad due to lack of caring in the skydiving industry then it has EVERYTHING to do with skydiving.
Now wait a minute. You were saying that better jump pilot training was necessary. If we're discussing that specific, then, yes, you should remove those accidents that the primary cause was determined to be a mechanical problem... i.e. single engine aircraft, motor explodes and bursts into flames... or say "wing falls off"... i.e. those incidents which IF you'd have had a jump pilot trained as good as a NASA Shuttle Pilot and it wouldn't make any difference should be removed. Admittedly, those numbers are probably pretty small.
Now is you want to open up the discussion to include marginally maintened jump planes, fair enough, but if we're just talking jump pilot training, then we need to keep it to that.
-------------
Quote***3) Did you eliminate non-jump general aviation incidents that occured under conditions not directly comparable to that under which jump ops typically occur?
I'm really not sure what you were asking here. Could you clearify or give an example of what you mean?
Here's a few examples...
When was the last time you saw a jump plane going through bad weather, trying to make its destination and go down due to icing?
When was the last time you saw a jump plane skid off the end of the runway because it landed in a snow storm and wound up through the end of the fence at the end of the field and on the lot of the gas station across the street?
When was the last time you saw a jump plane scud running, in and out of IMC and fly into the side of a mountain?
All of the above have happend in GA and Commercial Aviation in conditions which jump ops don't occur.
-----------------
QuoteYou seem to want to cut things out so it doesn't seem so bad.
Actually, I don't want to cut out things to make them seem so bad. I want to get things to more of an apples to apples comparison. I don't see the point of comparing jump ops to GA ops that are not close to being "like" conditions. I don't want to eliminate any jump ops incidents, just those from the GA side that are not like or nearly like conditions. Actually, it might even make jump ops look worse then your "twice as accident prone" claim.
-----------------
QuoteOne last thing, USPA does not include in it's yearly statistics for jump plane accidents ferry flights and maintenance (Mx) flights. They believe that if there were no jumpers on board at takeoff then it wasn't a jump plane accident. I have always ascerted that these accidents have EVERYTHING to do with skydiving as it is the industry that has put these planes and pilots in the precarious position they often find themselves. Lack of training. Lack of Mx.
Actually, I agree with this approach. If its a ferry flight or a Mx flight, its not a skydiving flight. However, I'd venture the theory that ferry and Mx flights are such a small percentage of the total hours any jump op any DZ carries out within a year, its probably in the noise.
However, agian, are we just taling jump pilot training here or both jump pilot training and jump plane Mx? I thought we were just talking jump pilot training?
----------------
QuoteI have no illusions that people will always argue with my ascertions and postings. But it seems you haven't read my website yet.
Yes, I've seen your website. No I haven't read every last thing on it in infinite detail. Yes, I think its a good website with what I trust is accurate information. As you've stated, you're obviously trying to make a point with the message its trying to send, so its also obvious that its salted with your bias... now mind, I didn't say thats a bad thing... heck, they wouldn't call them opinions if there weren't different opinions or strength there of.
QuoteNow is you want to open up the discussion to include marginally maintened jump planes, fair enough, but if we're just talking jump pilot training, then we need to keep it to that.
The PIC is SUPPOSED to check the Mx on the plane. They are Pilot In Command and are the final authority to the operation of the aircraft. Pilot training INCLUDES how to know when Mx is bad or the aircraft isn't airworthy. So again, why would you cut those accidents out? They are part of the picture. And yes, pilot training will help with bad Mx. Pilot refuses to fly a crappy plane... plane gets fixed (hopefully).
QuoteHere's a few examples...
When was the last time you saw a jump plane going through bad weather, trying to make its destination and go down due to icing?
Beech King Air. Skydivers on board returning to Utah. They died of hypothermia in the water.
Beech King Air 90 Fatal Lake Point, UT January 14, 2001
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20010126X00364&key=1
QuoteWhen was the last time you saw a jump plane skid off the end of the runway because it landed in a snow storm and wound up through the end of the fence at the end of the field and on the lot of the gas station across the street?
Not landing in driving snow and skidding off a runway but it was an over shoot due to trying to get in before fog totally covered the airport:
TP-206 (Turbo-prop Cessna 206) Non-Fatal Snohomish, WA December 11, 2005
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060106X00021&key=1
QuoteWhen was the last time you saw a jump plane scud running, in and out of IMC and fly into the side of a mountain?
Fatal reposition flight of a twin otter trying to go to Carolina SkySport.
DHC-6 Fatal Reposition of Jump Plane Raleigh, NC July 31, 2000
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X21533&key=1
QuoteAll of the above have happend in GA and Commercial Aviation in conditions which jump ops don't occur.
Oh really? I think I gave three examples of jump planes crashing in conditions you described. What is the true danger to the jump pilot? The industry.
Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125
Chris,
I just knew you were going to bring up the 2001, King Air, Salt Lake incident.
I know you don't see it the way I do and I know you won't, but IMO that was not a skydiving incident. It just happened to be a bunch of skydivers in a jump plane that had the misfortune to die when their pilot screwed away an IFR approach to landing.
I'm a skydiver, if while ridding on a commercial airplane on buisiness travel that plane crashes and I die, was that a skydiving incident?
I'm a skydiver, if one slow Sunday morning I'm hanging around the DZ and the DZO / Pilot says, "I'm bored, lets jump in the plane and fly over to the Silver Saddle and get a cup of coffee and breakfast", we get in the Otter and while inroute to the Silver Saddle #2 bursts into flames and the plane crashes and we die... is that a skydiving incident because I'm a skydiver and we were in a jump plane being flown by a jump pilot? A real corner scenario, I know, but NOT a skydiving incident IMO.
I'll give you the one where the jump pilot that prangded the plane onto the ground after droping her load of jmpers, but the one about the Otter getting lost in the fog has about as much to do with skydiving only in that it was a jump plane... if it had been a doctor in a V-tailed Bonanza, then it wouldn't have been a skydiving incident.
You've missed my point AND I KNOW it is MY fault for making it so badly in the beginning, but you've missed my point none-the-less. No one, not even me, is saying better safety, pilot training & maintenance, is a bad thing. However, just because the, "Its for Safety Sake" card is placed on something doesn't mean it should be beyond reproach, scrutiny or critique is what I'm trying to say.
You're obviously very passionite about this topic.
In other words, be careful at how broad you paint your brush strokes is what I'm trying to say.
If you truely want to go after something, my 2 cents, go after the bottom of the bell curve 3-5% of jump pilots / operations that are so truely inept at their trade that they are a menace to those who ride with them. I've known a few in my time and refused to get in an airplane with them.
I just knew you were going to bring up the 2001, King Air, Salt Lake incident.
I know you don't see it the way I do and I know you won't, but IMO that was not a skydiving incident. It just happened to be a bunch of skydivers in a jump plane that had the misfortune to die when their pilot screwed away an IFR approach to landing.
I'm a skydiver, if while ridding on a commercial airplane on buisiness travel that plane crashes and I die, was that a skydiving incident?
I'm a skydiver, if one slow Sunday morning I'm hanging around the DZ and the DZO / Pilot says, "I'm bored, lets jump in the plane and fly over to the Silver Saddle and get a cup of coffee and breakfast", we get in the Otter and while inroute to the Silver Saddle #2 bursts into flames and the plane crashes and we die... is that a skydiving incident because I'm a skydiver and we were in a jump plane being flown by a jump pilot? A real corner scenario, I know, but NOT a skydiving incident IMO.
I'll give you the one where the jump pilot that prangded the plane onto the ground after droping her load of jmpers, but the one about the Otter getting lost in the fog has about as much to do with skydiving only in that it was a jump plane... if it had been a doctor in a V-tailed Bonanza, then it wouldn't have been a skydiving incident.
You've missed my point AND I KNOW it is MY fault for making it so badly in the beginning, but you've missed my point none-the-less. No one, not even me, is saying better safety, pilot training & maintenance, is a bad thing. However, just because the, "Its for Safety Sake" card is placed on something doesn't mean it should be beyond reproach, scrutiny or critique is what I'm trying to say.
You're obviously very passionite about this topic.
In other words, be careful at how broad you paint your brush strokes is what I'm trying to say.
If you truely want to go after something, my 2 cents, go after the bottom of the bell curve 3-5% of jump pilots / operations that are so truely inept at their trade that they are a menace to those who ride with them. I've known a few in my time and refused to get in an airplane with them.
billvon 3,030
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>but IMO that was not a skydiving incident.
If a non-skydiving pilot rents an aircraft used for skydiving operations, and takes some friends (two of whom have done tandems) and he crashes, you'd have a good argument for it being a non-skydiving-related operation.
But in the case of a skydiving aircraft, flown by a jump pilot, carrying skydivers and skydiving gear from a skydiving event to a dropzone, I don't think you can claim it's not a skydiving incident. We make that pretty clear in the waivers we all sign.
If a non-skydiving pilot rents an aircraft used for skydiving operations, and takes some friends (two of whom have done tandems) and he crashes, you'd have a good argument for it being a non-skydiving-related operation.
But in the case of a skydiving aircraft, flown by a jump pilot, carrying skydivers and skydiving gear from a skydiving event to a dropzone, I don't think you can claim it's not a skydiving incident. We make that pretty clear in the waivers we all sign.
Quote>but IMO that was not a skydiving incident.
If a non-skydiving pilot rents an aircraft used for skydiving operations, and takes some friends (two of whom have done tandems) and he crashes, you'd have a good argument for it being a non-skydiving-related operation.
But in the case of a skydiving aircraft, flown by a jump pilot, carrying skydivers and skydiving gear from a skydiving event to a dropzone, I don't think you can claim it's not a skydiving incident. We make that pretty clear in the waivers we all sign.
I'll agree to disagree with you Bill... the two of us are just drawing the line at a different place... but I still don't think the 2001 King Air, Utah, Salt Lake incident was a skydiving incident, per-say, waivers or not.
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites