Canopy Size with Vigil Student Mode

[jonaspinheiro 1]

Which should be the smallest canopy to use with a Vigil in Student Mode?

[Deyan 36]

jonaspinheiro

Which should be the smallest canopy to use with a Vigil in Student Mode?

You should be fine using almost every sport canopy in any size. Just don't turn bellow 1000 ft. I don't think there are many canopies that will descent with 20 m/s on a strait in approach. Maybe very small cross braced canopies with very high WLs.

On the other hand, I think you can "scare" the AAD even with say 250sq. ft. student canopy if you make some turns.

So, what decision you are trying to make?

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[pchapman 279]

Not sure.

A decade back I did some tests at a DZ with FXC 12000's, for a DZO who was concerned about downsize rental gear. The Vigil student mode is set at the equivalent of 45 mph, while the FXC is more vague:"Descent rate faster than 65 fps (approx 45 mph) MUST fire. Descent rate slower than 40 fps (approx 27 mph) MUST NOT fire". So the FXC could fire at lower speeds than a Vigil, but the must-fire level is basically the same.

I did a few jumps carrying 3 FXC's with me, and tried to do long, continuous, efficient feeling toggle spirals through firing altitude. I couldn't get a Sabre 135 at 1.3 wing loading to fire any FXCs, but a couple went off at 1.4 loading.

But in the end I think it is more about renter behaviour than an absolute size limit. Rental rigs with student mode AAD's are generally not for doing lots of low spirals on.

[linebckr83 3]

I've watched an M2 on student mode fire under a 260 sqft Navigator. It can happen under anything. Fly a nice conservative pattern under 1000ft and you'll be ok on pretty much any normal canopy.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[mattjw916 2]

I can easily achieve a descent rate >45mph with just a 90° front riser turn at around 1.4 on my 135, let alone my 120. I wouldn't want an AAD in "student" mode anywhere near that loading personally. I probably could hit those speeds under my 150 too with a moderately more aggressive turn.

My $0.02.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[pchapman 279]

Certainly nowadays with all the data loggers one should be able to get some better data than I dealt with!

[jonaspinheiro 1]

I was just wondering if is a good idea keep it in Student Mode or switch to Pro Mode if I use a small canopy, like Navigator 220 or 200.

I've seen some dropzone that always use Pro AAD in Student's rig.

[gowlerk 2,245]

jonaspinheiro

I was just wondering if is a good idea keep it in Student Mode or switch to Pro Mode if I use a small canopy, like Navigator 220 or 200.

I've seen some dropzone that always use Pro AAD in Student's rig.

My feeling is that AADs should only be used in student mode for first, or very early jumps. The main reason for them at all is in case a student does not recognize, or fails to respond to a spinning or otherwise rapidly descending malfunction. The two out possibility is very real with student AADs.

Of course that is my personal opinion only. YMMV

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Hellis 0]

jonaspinheiro

I was just wondering if is a good idea keep it in Student Mode or switch to Pro Mode if I use a small canopy, like Navigator 220 or 200.

I've seen some dropzone that always use Pro AAD in Student's rig.

In my opinion you should change it to Pro.
But how many jumps do you have, and in how many years?

I can understand if someone with less than, say 30 jumps want student mode, and I would be ok-ish with it.
More than 30 jumps and normally currrent, Pro mode.
But if you have 50 jumps in 10 years, then it's different

[DHemer 0]

We had a 188 loaded at 1:1 fire on student cypress, now changed to expert model

We have our rental vigils set to student only on everything larger than 235. Modes do not get changed.
Expert cypresses on anything smaller

[pchapman 279]

DHemer

We had a 188 loaded at 1:1 fire on student cypress, now changed to expert modelr

I was surprised until I remembered that the Cypres student mode activates at 29 mph*, unlike the Vigil at 45 mph.

Still, if investigating this one would want to know if the student was behaving reasonably and the AAD somehow thought it was descending faster, or whether the student was spiralling down at pattern altitudes.

Edit: To comment on other things in this thread, most DZ's emphatically don't want gear renters to start changing modes of their AAD's...




*Or a higher speed between 750 and 1000ft.

[faulknerwn 38]

A few weeks ago we had a jumper who had a Vigil 2 set in student mode (he didn't realize you could change it! doh!) fire his under a 170 loaded at 1.1ish (Pilot or Sabre 2 I forget which).

There were 4 of us on the plane, him me and a tandem, and he was under a good canopy above 3, but it was freezing so started spiraling down. I swear he was above a grand when his aad fired - I was at 2 grand feet just above him and watched it happen, yet still even holding in brakes videoing and watching landed 30 seconds before him.

It was definitely a Vigil fire. Since then I handed him the manual and made him read it :-)