micro raven openings

[iwasinkheson68 0]

Hey all,
A quick question for some of you.

I recently had one of my reserve packs deployed and they complained (perhaps that's too strong a word) that the opening left them winded.

It was a micro raven loaded at 1.2. I don't have my log with me, but the size would be in the 135 to 150 range.

It was deployed at terminal after a hard pull on her main. She was jumping at eloy so perhaps the extra altitude didn't help (eloy is 1500ft msl?)

I packed it in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

She didn't give a glowing review of the canopy (it preferred turning left to turning right apparently), but I'm wondering if micro ravens have a reputation for opening hard, or if there is some way I can improve my technique with them to not kill my customers (and friends)?

Thanks,
Mike

[skez 0]

Usually people complain about the micro raven landings being to hard not the openings lol

FTMC

[stayhigh 2]

I'm with the guy ^.

If the person had a safe landing on a Micro-Ravens, then they really shouldn't be complaining.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[wmw999 2,456]

It's a reserve. A butter-soft opening would be unusual, and in some cases unfortunate.

And yeah, I HAVE a micro-raven 150, and agree about the landings . Unless you do them right (which is different from doing your main right), they'll put you right on your butt a few feet off the ground, just waiting for it to come smack you.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[gowlerk 2,216]

Do her a favour and point out to her that she is loading it beyond the placarded weight limit. Now that she has tried it, maybe she'll start to believe it's there for a good reason. Ravens are fine parachutes, but they should not be overloaded, and 1:1.2 is at least somewhat overloaded for them. Although lots of people are doing it anyway.

As far as your technique goes, you need to use one that promotes fast on heading openings. Most reserve deployments are sub terminal, if you attempt to slow the opening someone with a low cutaway may use their last words to swear at you.

These are all just my opinions.

I am curious about one thing. You say:

Quote

I packed it in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

The only Raven manual I've ever seen says Ravens used as reserves are to be side packed, and that pro packing is not approved for Ravens as reserves, only as mains. I've only been doing rigging for 4 years, but I have never seen any reserve side packed into a molar bag, including many Ravens. I always pro pack them, so I'm asking here does anybody follow the instructions and side pack them? Is there a newer manual I haven't found yet that allows for pro packing?

And yes Ravens do have a reputation for opening hard. (except the very first model) Micro Ravens are just smaller Super Ravens and they never became too popular as mains for just that reason. As reserves we think of that as a good thing.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RiggerLee 61]

You can side pack, and I mean side pack not on the floor pro pack, and put it into a molar bag. There are actually a couple of ways to do it. You can actually split the ears dragging three cells out of the folds to each side. It wont be as neat and it's more bulky. It also limits how you can fold the canopy and distribute the bulk. There is actually an even older school way to pack it where you do not split the ears. You take the top of the canopy and go to one side of the loop and turn it 90 deg. across the top of the bag to fill the top of the bag. Don't even think about trying this with one of the modern bricks. Oh, for days gone by, when rigs were wide and soft and fluffy. Where did we ever go wrong?

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[skez 0]

Long story short the more people that cry about the ravens just means the cheaper i can get one for lol and its a reserve if u land with zero injuries then who the fuck cares....learn to pack also i couldn't pack a pilot chute to have a hard pull if i tried thats the worst type situation to have a reserve pull u dont even get a cutaway or any fun at all...the lamest way to use your reserve

FTMC

[gowlerk 2,216]

Brett, you bring so much to us. Thanks. Must say I do agree about bringing down the price of Ravens.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[skez 0]

gowlerk

Brett, you bring so much to us. Thanks. Must say I do agree about bringing down the price of Ravens.

Im glad you appreciate what i bring to u all lol....its a result of having no job alot of time and drinking way to much haha but yeh i like the ravens i have a micro150 raven..also raven1 raven2 and two raven3's....also u would be surprised how cheap u can get wine if brand names arent your game..just sayin

FTMC

[theplummeter 15]

I have ridden two different Micro Raven 150 canopies after cutaways. Both were subterminal and both were fast and firm openings. I imagine a terminal opening would be really firm but that's exactly what I'd be looking for in a reserve, especially if I was low.

I think I'm the only skydiver in the country who didn't hate the landings, both canopies gave stand up landings in the normal landing area. It's not a great flaring canopy but not horrible either, just flare way low, fast, and not too far on the toggle stroke.

[skez 0]

theplummeter

I have ridden two different Micro Raven 150 canopies after cutaways. Both were subterminal and both were fast and firm openings. I imagine a terminal opening would be really firm but that's exactly what I'd be looking for in a reserve, especially if I was low.

I think I'm the only skydiver in the country who didn't hate the landings, both canopies gave stand up landings in the normal landing area. It's not a great flaring canopy but not horrible either, just flare way low, fast, and not too far on the toggle stroke.

I think your just honest and landed it correctly...others fucked up coz there idiot's and blamed the canopy...

FTMC

[gowlerk 2,216]

Quote

I think your just honest and landed it correctly...others fucked up coz there idiot's and blamed the canopy...

You need to be careful about who you say this to. Someone could get hurt because they took your advice and saved a couple hundred bucks using a Micro Raven. He doesn't say how heavily he loaded that Micro Raven. They will land fine when not overloaded. If you overload it and have a bad landing you have likely made a mistake. But not a canopy flying error, it's a canopy selection error. An overloaded Raven will stall if flared fully for landing, and if not flared enough it will land like a rock. If only a little overloaded there is a small window for a decent landing, that sounds like what he achieved on his two good landings. Above about 1:1.3 there is little probability of a good landing, although you may still walk away if you are lucky.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[skez 0]

gowlerk

Quote

I think your just honest and landed it correctly...others fucked up coz there idiot's and blamed the canopy...

You need to be careful about who you say this to. Someone could get hurt because they took your advice and saved a couple hundred bucks using a Micro Raven. He doesn't say how heavily he loaded that Micro Raven. They will land fine when not overloaded. If you overload it and have a bad landing you have likely made a mistake. But not a canopy flying error, it's a canopy selection error. An overloaded Raven will stall if flared fully for landing, and if not flared enough it will land like a rock. If only a little overloaded there is a small window for a decent landing, that sounds like what he achieved on his two good landings. Above about 1:1.3 there is little probability of a good landing, although you may still walk away if you are lucky.

Yeh definitely makes sense.. but if there heavy buy a suitable raven there all cheap...micro or super raven.......and if people want to overload the fuck out of micro ravens then that's there fault not the canopy.....ppl been running ravens for years as base canopies there good canopies...

FTMC

[djerbist1 0]

Sorry i have no idea
but if i have i will help you
good luck

Skydiving Lovers
http://www.skydivinglovers.com

[gowlerk 2,216]

Quote

Yeh definitely makes sense.. but if there heavy buy a suitable raven there all cheap...micro or super raven.......and if people want to overload the fuck out of micro ravens then that's there fault not the canopy.....ppl been running ravens for years as base canopies there good canopies...

They are good canopies. But what happens now is someone is putting together a rig, with say a 150 Stiletto, or Sabre ect. They have a container for it, but not a reserve. The container is sized for 150s, dude weights 180, 200 with gear. He doesn't want to lay out the cash for a modern 143-160 ish reserve, the Raven one 180 won't fit in his container, but he finds a Micro Raven 150 for only $250- 300.......Next thing he knows, he's laying flat on his back, or sitting down with a broken ankle because the Micro Raven is not designed for this weight. It still happens a lot more often than it should.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[councilman24 37]

Remember, Raven's (yes not micro ravens) were mains also. This is back when parachutes opened. Not malfunctioned for 600-800 then decided to open. Remember, reserves are supposed to open in less than 3 seconds (or 300 ft if low speed deployments can't meet 3 seconds). Frankly if a customer didn't grunt pretty hard from the force of a terminal ram air reserve opening I'd say that it was too slow. It will be significantly harder than any modern design main. The mains have been slowed down so much like I said above I call them malfunctions that clear. That's why I still jump original Sabre's and Triathlons. When I want to stop the skydive I want it stopped now. And I'm willing to get out or pull at 2000'.

My guess is that they had normal reserve openings. Just something they've never felt before. And other than making sure the slider is up against the stops when you put it in the bag I can't imagine a rigger wanting to slow down a reserve opening. Remember the alternative to a fast opening may be hitting the ground.

Because people are going faster and over loading reserves one major manuf. is now shooting for 2.8 sec during TSO testing instead of 2.2 sec. Again against the requirement of 3.0 sec.

And as discussed above loading a Raven above 1.0 is asking for a stall on landing. Especially for people who have never flown a Raven or other older design F-111 canopy.

They lived and didn't break anything. Tell them to stop complaining and buy you your bottle.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[ridebmxbikes 0]

eh, i had an opening at terminal on a micro raven 150 loaded at .9. it was quite brisk ill admit but if I'm at terminal with a reserve its because i just want everything to stop and the faster that happens the happier i am!

[riggerrob 643]

Yes, all the Raven manuals tell riggers to side-pack them. However, at some point, the container manual begins to dominate.
For example (wow! this is almost 20 years old!) when I was writing the manual for the Aviator/P-124A pilot emergency parachute, Sandy Reid told us to pro-pack. Pro-packing was mainly for (symmetrical) pilot comfort. George Galloway (of Precision) never saw the final pack job until a PIA Symposium, then George just stood there and smiled.

There are two reasons most modern container manuals say to pro-pack reserves: first; symmetrical openings can be a bit harder before they tear a canopy and secondly, pro-packing makes bulk distribution easier around the AAD battery box.

[riggerrob 643]

All reserves open hard. Tell your customer to quit whining.

[Tisket 0]

ridebmxbikes

eh, i had an opening at terminal on a micro raven 150 loaded at .9. it was quite brisk ill admit but if I'm at terminal with a reserve its because i just want everything to stop and the faster that happens the happier i am!

I'm with you on this one. My reserve ride wasn't on a raven, but I was most definitely at terminal and within the recommended limits of the reserve. It was fast as hell but I just wanted good looking fabric over my head...and pronto! The next few days I was sore but it sure beat the alternative.

If you can't convince them, keep them confused.

[pchapman 279]

gowlerk

The only Raven manual I've ever seen says Ravens used as reserves are to be side packed,

For what it's worth, there was a Raven reserve pro packing video. Not sure when it came out but it was available by 1990 when I started to rig, when Ravens were perhaps the most common reserve.

Although I was just starting at the time, I got the impression that it was the cool new thing, a video to be watched very carefully as few jumpers had any exposure to pro packing.

But yeah Precision never has been too good with updating manuals or making them easily available.

[highspeeddirt 0]

people are just flat out IDIOTS. bitch and complain about the opening shock , better than dying.i once got complaints about line twists on a round reserve, when the user got into a flat spin and the sentinel fired at 1000 feet. LOL

[D22369 0]

I have a 120 micro raven and have had one opening on it - yes its overloaded.

yes it opened fast - but it was not any harder than any of the others I have had on swift, tempo, and phantom (round)

a terminal opening usually tends to smack you pretty good - the swift+ really rang my bell at terminal - the tempo at terminal was a little softer but still hard

its a reserve, its packed to open subterminal or terminal FAST.

400' has been the farthest I have travelled before having a reserve over my head.

couple questions:
1.Is it her first reserve ride ever?
2.did she tip head down while pulling the ripcord?
3.not that its related to the opening but has the SB been performed on this micro raven?
4.is it possible that the leg straps were unevenly tightened or one had slipped during opening shock? which would make turning one way easier.

the micro raven is a slug to fly - slow turns and a rediculously short stroke on the flair when overloaded - but it gets you to the ground in one piece.

It opened, it saved her life, you are owed a bottle
Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[iwasinkheson68 0]

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

I'm with you in that I'd rather have my reserve open hard than sit there and snivel me into the ground, of course, but just wanted to hear other's experiences.

[pchapman 279]

D22369

1.Is it her first reserve ride ever?
2.did she tip head down while pulling the ripcord?

Indeed.
And does she have experience with fast opening canopies? (E.g., some F-111, unmodified Sabre 1's, etc)

A skim through other Raven related threads suggests hard openings are sometimes talked about although not a widespread concern. It is normally the landings at higher wing loading that are a concern. Questions of hard openings go back to the era of the Dash M service bulletin and whether one of the guys who blew the unreinforced line attachments was technically within the certification envelope or not. I don't recall what the consensus was on that, and that's a whole other more complex situation.

One of my reserve packs was used by a jumper who was a regular BASE jumper too. His first reserve opening, on a nice PD reserve after a baglock, still surprised him a little -- reminding him of a BASE canopy he said. Even those used to a little snappiness aren't always used to their reserves at terminal.

Still, occasionally an opening can be too hard for good functioning. A buddy ended up smacked hard on his Glide Path Cricket I think it was, at high speed after a pilot chute in tow. But he had full video & stills gear on his head. He was somewhat groggy under canopy and sore for a couple days.