Mockingbird 0 #76 February 28, 2007 Yeah, the only cut away/reserve handles I've pulled are on a dummy rig that's not suspended or anything. I'm sure the real thing has got to feel a lot different...Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #77 March 1, 2007 QuoteYeah, the only cut away/reserve handles I've pulled are on a dummy rig that's not suspended or anything. I'm sure the real thing has got to feel a lot different... The velcro on a newish rig will generally be much stronger than on an (old) practice rig. You might be surprised at how much force is needed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #78 March 1, 2007 QuoteYeah, the only cut away/reserve handles I've pulled are on a dummy rig that's not suspended or anything. I'm sure the real thing has got to feel a lot different... It's off-topic, but I find it dismaying that some DZ's do not have a suspended harness to teach (and refresh) EP's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #79 March 2, 2007 QuoteIt's off-topic, but I find it dismaying that some DZ's do not have a suspended harness to teach (and refresh) EP's. Me too. How much could it possibly cost to set one up? Maybe the cost of one tandem jump out of the hundreds they do every month or two?Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #80 March 2, 2007 QuoteHow much could it possibly cost to set one up? Maybe the cost of one tandem jump out of the hundreds they do every month or two? How about free!, I have yet to go to a DZ anywhere in the USA that I couldn't find the needed tools,hardware,lumber or other solid support laying around to build one with in a few minutes time,1 hour max.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #81 March 2, 2007 I think it would be good to require students to learn all the parts of the rig and what they do ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. Gear knowledge should be metered to junior jumpers in small doses. For example, the first jump course should only include "must know" information (i.e. "If you don't see the correct picture overhead, pull the red handle, closely followed by the silver handle.") That is the maximum amount of information the average first-timer can absorb. During later jumps, you can gradually layer on additional information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #82 March 3, 2007 Hmm, that doesn't make much sense to me. BUT, you should know, so I'll defer to you and think about it some more. Thanks.Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #83 March 3, 2007 QuoteI disagree. Gear knowledge should be metered to junior jumpers in small doses. For example, the first jump course should only include "must know" information (i.e. "If you don't see the correct picture overhead, pull the red handle, closely followed by the silver handle.") QuoteHmm, that doesn't make much sense to me. BUT, you should know, so I'll defer to you and think about it some more. Thanks. The problem RIGGERROB has identified with adding too much rigging to the first jump course is that the student will be overloaded, and will forget the really important stuff (like dealing with malfunctions). So, the student should be given a quick overview of the rig right away, but on the first few jumps, the JM is really responsible for rigging control. Additional information should then be given on each future jump. This is the philosophy developed for the ISP and is specifically valuable for a tandem progression. The first few jumps have almost no rigging. The equipment is explained at around jump three as part of a comprehensive ground school (CGS) when the student enters the AFF part of the program, and then elements are covered in great detail on later jumps. Even with a traditional AFF or SL program, the equipment information needed for the first jump is very limited. The bulk of the information should be spread out through the multi-jump training program so it will be better retained by the student. By the end of the program, the student should have a full plate of rigging knowledge. Take a look at the grid for the ISP in the USPA SIM for a better idea of how rigging should be taught through a progression. ...at least that's my position, and what I thik RIGGERROB was getting at.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #85 March 3, 2007 sounds like the dzo's and riggers ought to take initiative with everyone not just students and put on small gear class on a regular basis maybe two or three times a year. I do agree with the statement of overload. This must be an ongoing learning process because the sport is a never ending learning curve. Everybody and everything can always improve but you have to work at it.don't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kenneth21441 0 #86 March 3, 2007 Heres where I stand at on this issue> Having been in the rigging field for what almost 19 years now. I recall when I was also a young Airborne Rigger at Ft Bragg. Not knowing some of the parts just having gone through 13 weeks of BS in packing my own rig that I was too jump to repairing these same type of parachutes along with those cargo parachutes, not including how to rig and load up all these different things that the Army wanted to throw out of these big birds. So yes, here I was a young paratrooper/ rigger who did not know the differnece between a main lift web of the harness and a free fall rig... Just joking but some what true. This is where a little On the Job training OJT comes into play. And yes, I did learn all the names and what they do and even went as far as learning more each day..... Until one day (not too far after being a airborne rigger) that I was considered an expert on these items.. Since I wanted to learn and lived the life of an Airborne Rigger. I WILL BE SURE ALWAYS!! Is what I lived and worked under. Soon NCO's were asking me ... cool Id think. Too this Day I still lear things. Now to have a new skydiver try to learn all this they must really live the life... Know what a free bag is and does, how the cut away systems work, why we do gear checks.. all this and more. You cant teach a new jumper all these as **it happens and you cant trust the kind of trust that a rigger must have. Ive seen some jumpers and riggers who i would trust and some i would not to pack me a parachute. I guess it takes time to learn to do a good jump. Like inspections. Inspections are one area that we riggers must look at the materials (stiching, warp and fill, any damages etc).. We can usually tell if the material is good or Not . Ive seen some rigs where you can poke a finger throught the materials: but no the jumper still thought it was safe, Ive seen a jumper put duct tape on a tear near the tail and watched the canopy rip from rear to front on his next deployment. Thank god the rigger did a great job on his reserve. Educate the jumper but dont over educate them. If they want that then go for the Lic. to be a rigger. Jumpers should know little things in time, with each day how to keep there rigs protected and all. But I sure am not going to teach someone with 20 jumps how to pack a reserve but would show them how to hook up the 3 ring and some basic pre jump inspections... This is important stuff.... Then progress up from there. As far as a D Lic. holder we can hope they know how to pack there own mains. But I seen some who has a hard time getting it into proper layout .. or who reverse line stow the stows etc.... So be it there. Rigging comes with experience but let the proffessionals who is trained and lic. do what we need to do. To keep this a safe sport. Id suggest that each DZ make there own little manual for new jumpers with equipment information and a jumper check list for the jumpers to check themselves. I know there is one out here. Just my two cents on this as from what I have observed ...... here and there,..... Thanks, Ken..Kenneth Potter FAA Senior Parachute Rigger Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA) FFL Gunsmith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #87 March 3, 2007 I agree with that. I think that I've had to learn way too much of this on my own-- either by reading, or by asking questions--- Now I realize that asking questions is an excellent way to learn, but one must ask alll the right questions. What if a question important to my safety hasn't occurred to me? I agree with Riggerrob and Tom about brain overload in the FJC, and I see that the ISP suggests a good progression of knowledge, but the only things about gear that were formally taught during my student progression were pre-jump equipment checks. I never even looked at the RSL system ("from snap shackle to guide ring" ) 'til I got my own gear. A lack of knowledge made investigation scary. Anyway, all I'm saying is that to learn, I had to take the initiative most of the time. Which isn't a bad thing, but.....Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #88 March 3, 2007 QuoteA lack of knowledge made investigation scary. Anyway, all I'm saying is that to learn, I had to take the initiative most of the time. Which isn't a bad thing, but..... As a packer and rigger, I am very proactive in working with jumpers, especially students and new jumpers, in teaching them to pack, maintanance, etc. I find it scary that about 50% are eager to learn, and 50% simply don't give a damn. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #89 March 3, 2007 On behalf of those of us in the elementary/intermediate stage, thank you for all the knowledge you pass on. We really appreciate it. Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird "Why is there something rather than nothing?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #90 March 3, 2007 I do it for purely selfish motivation.. it's fun Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voltage 0 #91 March 4, 2007 > Id suggest that each DZ make there own little manual for new jumpers with > equipment information and a jumper check list for the jumpers to check > themselves. I know there is one out here. Hm here there is no such manual available. Are there any good books for jumpers to educate themselves about basic rigging on modern gear? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kenneth21441 0 #92 March 4, 2007 My DZ has one,... I know because I did it.. Try Poynters books.... plus the one .... that Sandy did for the FAA>>>>Kenneth Potter FAA Senior Parachute Rigger Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA) FFL Gunsmith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quinny 0 #93 March 11, 2007 I agree....Overlaoding a student is a ridiculous notion! Its called progression because you learn progressively In response to the main topic, I do not believe rigging should be a requirement as there are a lot of jumpers out there who love jumping and hire a rigger to do the job and have no interest in doing it themselves. Leave rigging to people who actively want to do it and work hard to fill the requirements. A basic knowlegde of equipment is taught and if you want to know more about it then see your local rigger. If then you crave more...maybe your rigger will spend time with you and you can pursue your rating. Making it a requirement would turn everyone into a rigger!!! and the world would be weird Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #94 March 12, 2007 QuoteMaking it a requirement would turn everyone into a rigger!!! and the world would be weird Or it would be alot like skydiving was back in the "day".---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
