yvanpec 1 #1 January 13, 2015 Hi, I know that good packing skills can make a main fit or not fit into a tray. How big would you guys would say it makes of a difference ? 10, 15 % volume ? I am still looking at buying a rig and really want that Pilot 188 ZPX but I am afraid that I won't be able to take advantage of the ZPX fabric since my packing skills blow donkey dongs. I am actually concerned that New canopy X no packing skills = a bigger volume than the regular ZP would be....Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wasatchrider 0 #2 January 13, 2015 even if you mess up the folds and blow fabric out all over the place it still has less volume...BASE 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #3 January 13, 2015 It's not an issue of volume. No matter how you pack the canopy will late up the same amount of space. The issue is with bulk distribution. A good pack job fills the corners of the d-bag and fills the tray as designed.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yvanpec 1 #4 January 13, 2015 wasatchridereven if you mess up the folds and blow fabric out all over the place it still has less volume... Makes sense, but I was talking on the ability to get rid of most of the air out i guess. i feel like there is still a bit of air in my canopy even after the last fold and my ass sitting on it for a minutes.Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,190 #5 January 13, 2015 QuoteMakes sense, but I was talking on the ability to get rid of most of the air out i guess. New packers (and many experienced ones) always struggle with controlling the bundle and getting it into the bag before it fills up with air. You can't really learn how to do this by reading about it, only hands on practice with coaching can teach you this skill. ZPX fabric has less bulk than regular ZP fabric. But it is just as slippery and hard to pack when new. The best thing for someone in your position to do is to get a container that is one size larger than needed. If you go with a ZPX canopy, try to get a container that is rated for the same size ZP canopy. Don't be concerned about how small you might want to go some day. If you are still in the sport when that day comes it it always easier to sell a larger container, and it's always easier to buy a smaller one. That's how the market works.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aeharding 2 #6 January 13, 2015 I'm a new jumper (~50 jumps), and I am at a DZ that makes you pack pretty much from the very beginning. I started with heavily used F111 manta student rigs, which were easy to to a traditional S-fold. About around 40 jumps, I started using a Sabre 1 210 (ZP) rental rig, jumped many times. It was very difficult at first to pack, and I had to learn how to control the fabric a lot better. It was still difficult, up to when I got a new Pilot 188 ZPX in a new Icon NexGen I5 container. When I first got the Nexgen, I tried packing it three times and failed each time. Then, I tried the reverse s-fold technique, got it on the 2nd try, and I've been able to pack it since. When I go back the the 210, it practically packs itself, which is amazing considering I've only packed it ~10 times, and the first few attempts failed! Also, while the Pilot 188 is still difficult to pack, I've gotten better at it after practicing probably only 10 times (night and day from when I first started packing!). So if you're a patient person, you will be able to pack it. Definitely not easy, and very annoying when you can't get it the first time. The first time you pack it feel good though, even if you don't feel confident jumping it and tear it back down to try again. :P A couple tips I've learned: 1. Reverse s-fold. Do it. 2. Use a pull-up cord to get the first rubber band through the first grommet (helpful on brand new fabric so you can concentrate on controlling the fabric instead of getting the rubber band through the first grommet). 3. When getting the air out of the fabric, push it all under you and make sure the tail completely covers the ears, and that there is no air in the ears (since you're going a reverse s-fold, ears are first, and it's easier to control the fabric when you're laying on it) 4. Slide the bottom of the bag under the first s-fold, and pull the side of the bag (grab the whole side of the s-fold to hold) towards the back instead of the top or something like that. Pull the bag, don't push the canopy. Pilot 188 ZPX and Icon I5 is definitely doable, but a new packer WILL need patience, tips (from someone actually watching you), and practice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Absolut 0 #7 January 13, 2015 From my experience (also as a packer) you can make a lot of canopies fit in containers quite well actually they are not designed for. 30 sqft too small or too big are possible to pack in a way so it fills up the corners and gives the whole container the same look and with a little adjustment on the loop the same pin pressure as a perfect fitting canopy. Depends on many factors, but if you vary the size of your S-folds, how much air you actually keep in the canopy (how fluffy you pack it) and so on you can really change a lot! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tred 0 #8 January 13, 2015 i am new to the sport and packing was the first real frustration I have had in skydiving. I got my own rig a few weeks ago and everynight when I got home I would pull out the canopy and practice packing. when I first started I thought packers used some kinda magic to fit the canopy in the bag with out fucking it up. with practice it has become very easy and I am packing myself after every jump... just keep at it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Earp 0 #9 January 13, 2015 mcordellIt's not an issue of volume. No matter how you pack the canopy will late up the same amount of space. The issue is with bulk distribution. A good pack job fills the corners of the d-bag and fills the tray as designed. Yep. I see many new guys who seem to think the goal is to make the cocooned canopy as skinny as possible. And then it piles up so thick right in the middle, that they have trouble getting the container closed. I cocoon my canopy WIDER than the bag by a little bit. That spreads things out as much as possible inside the bag, and makes the ends as firm as the middle. Then no trouble closing the flaps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yvanpec 1 #10 January 13, 2015 Thank you for all the great input ! Someone is letting me borrow a rig so I can practice since it's winter time here. It's brand new so I m getting alllllll the good frustration in I have noticed that I get a better result when I psycho pack. I was actually able to close the container on my last try ! Would I jump it ? hmmm not so sure haha. I will look into the reverse s-fold as I have no clue what it is.... Does a brand new container kinda lose its stiffness after a few packjobs ? the flaps are very stiff and so is the bottom of the container. Also, of course I feel like a longer closing loop would help (the grommets align but it really is a bitch), but I am afraid it would be a big mistake and cause a mal on opening. Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #11 January 13, 2015 yea a new container will relax a little after it is broken in. You don't necessarily have to get the grommets to overlap. Some rigs are designed so the grommets don't overlap fully. Make sure you read the packing instructions for whatever container you are packing since they aren't all exactly the same. Something you may try is, rather than stuffing the material under the cocoon, lie on top of it to get the air out and flatten it. Then FOLD the ears underneath so the outside of the ears are folded toward, but not across the middle of the back of the pack job. Flatten it out and if necessary fold again to get more of the material under the packjob. Smooth the top of the cocoon toward the ring at the top. You should be able to reach under the top of the cocoon and grab material on both sides of the center to control the material with one hand. If the material is new and especially slippery, make the s fold at the top first. Slide that s fold into the bag. Use the bag to control the first fold while you work on the rest. S fold the bottom of the packjob into the bag with the lines in the middle of the packjob. Make sure the slider doesn't move and the lines stay tight. using the outside of the bag to control the material, grab the top of the bag and the top of the folds and roll toward the middle (where the lines exit) to get the material into the bag enough to close it. I hope that makes sense. If you are able to picture that and do it, it should help you to control a brand new, slippery canopy. Get the pro-pack down before you start psycho packing. Psycho packing is ok but it is a bagging method and you need to be able to propack properly before you start trying other things.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #12 January 13, 2015 Yvanpec: Just to be clear, mcordell is describing the reverse S-fold -- folding the top of the canopy first, getting it controlled by getting it in the bag, then S folding the bottom of the canopy in. This avoids you trying to kneel on a tall, slippery pile with multiple S folds in it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yvanpec 1 #13 January 13, 2015 Thx for the details guys. I will try that I also realized that I was practicing on a kind of slippery surface, which I am sure does not help at all....will buy some good ol carpet to put underneath all that mess Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Absolut 0 #14 January 13, 2015 Just talk to the packers or more experienced people at the dz! There are really a lot of tricks that make packing heaps easier, everybody got their own little things that might help you! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,354 #15 January 14, 2015 Hi mcordell, QuoteSomething you may try is . . . All good advice. The attachment was written over 40 yrs ago; and is still good advice. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #16 January 14, 2015 At the end of the wonderhog advice, it mentions the stratostar having reefing lines. I didn't know it ever had anything like that.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,354 #17 January 14, 2015 Hi 777, Quotestratostar having reefing lines Yes, it did. The original configuration was a 'ropes & rings' system mounted on the bottom skin. Jerry Baumchen PS) I can remember when an RW formation was just breaking up and one guy, with a very early StratoStar, pulled. Out came the pilot chute, and then this really, really long set of 'ropes,' and then the d-bag/canopy came out of the pack tray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yvanpec 1 #18 January 14, 2015 JerryBaumchenHi mcordell, QuoteSomething you may try is . . . All good advice. The attachment was written over 40 yrs ago; and is still good advice. Jerry Baumchen I was scared of beating up the D bag.....I am not anymore !Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DivingWombat 0 #19 January 14, 2015 Why do you recommand buying the same container as for ZP? Do you have experience with this type of fabric? A pilot 188ZPX packs like a 140ZP! If you use a rig for a 190sf canopy, it will be WAY TOO LOOSE! gowlerkQuoteMakes sense, but I was talking on the ability to get rid of most of the air out i guess. New packers (and many experienced ones) always struggle with controlling the bundle and getting it into the bag before it fills up with air. You can't really learn how to do this by reading about it, only hands on practice with coaching can teach you this skill. ZPX fabric has less bulk than regular ZP fabric. But it is just as slippery and hard to pack when new. The best thing for someone in your position to do is to get a container that is one size larger than needed. If you go with a ZPX canopy, try to get a container that is rated for the same size ZP canopy. Don't be concerned about how small you might want to go some day. If you are still in the sport when that day comes it it always easier to sell a larger container, and it's always easier to buy a smaller one. That's how the market works. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wasatchrider 0 #20 January 14, 2015 I doubt it cuts the size that much maybe it packs like a 170BASE 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,190 #21 January 14, 2015 QuoteA pilot 188ZPX packs like a 140ZP! If you use a rig for a 190sf canopy, it will be WAY TOO LOOSE! I would like to watch you pack a ZPX 188 into a Javelin J1K sometime.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DivingWombat 0 #22 January 14, 2015 Most probably it will never happen. Canada is quite far away But I am ready to take the challenge any day. If you can fit in a pilot 140ZP, the pilot 188zpx will fit for sure. gowlerk Quote A pilot 188ZPX packs like a 140ZP! If you use a rig for a 190sf canopy, it will be WAY TOO LOOSE! I would like to watch you pack a ZPX 188 into a Javelin J1K sometime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #23 January 14, 2015 You are on crack if you think that zpx packs two sizes smaller. Zpx packs 1/2 or 2/3 sizes smaller than what it is marked. If you need full size smaller, you need to use PD pulse.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yvanpec 1 #24 January 14, 2015 Nobody ever agrees on this topic. Some guy working for Aerodyne that was demoing them said it does pack 2 sizes smaller. Than again when you actually email Aerodyne they say 1 size smaller. Then you see someone pack a 188zpx in a 150 container..... Maybe there is no definite answer ?Better be on the ground wishing you were up there than being up there wishing you were on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rickendiver 6 #25 January 14, 2015 I remember my experience at being a new packer with a new Pilot 168ZPX in a new Infinity I-44 was that it really couldn't be possible that this canopy was made to fit in this containerThen after about 20-25 jump cycles on the rig, everything seemed to get easier. Not sure how much of it was the canopy fabric "breaking in" or me not sucking quite as much at packing by then, but it seemed like the ZPX packed up a little smaller after a while. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
