nzdan 0 #1 February 18, 2015 So last weekend my Vigil 2 fired as I was rolling out of my landing turn, luckily I was in level flight when I felt the reserve begin to inflate and landed safely. 2008 Vigil 2 set to PRO, Velo 103 @ 2.1, 270 degree turn from 750 feet. The DZ is at sea level and the Vigil was turned on there that morning. I made 4 jumps earlier in the day using that same turn for landing without issues. I know there's other cases where AAD's have fired while swooping but always thought they were caused by big turns. Has anyone heard of issues with 270's before? Is a speed Cypress the only option? I'll see what Vigil says when they inspect the unit.Children in the dark cause accidents, accidents in the dark cause children. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
angryelf 0 #2 February 18, 2015 glad it worked out for you... Let us know what AAD says about it. Had a Vigil 1 go off in 2010 with a Katana 135. The unit somehow magically got itself into student mode with a 150' offset. Mine happened at 800'. Sent the unit back to Deland. Their take was that it was tampered with. My take is that the unit glitched after being unused for 6 months, then was woken up by a rigger who went thru every menu the night prior when he was repacking the rig. Either way-they were cool about it and helped cover the cost of the cutter. Irregardless it did 10 jumps in my pocket before I was confident enough to put it back in my rig. Still have it, probably has over 1200 jumps on it now... -Harry"Sometimes you eat the bar, and well-sometimes the bar eats you..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #3 February 18, 2015 nzdanI know there's other cases where AAD's have fired while swooping but always thought they were caused by big turns. Has anyone heard of issues with 270's before? Is a speed Cypress the only option? There is also a seperate version of Vigil 2+, for swooping. 'Vigil 2+ Extreme', I believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomWatson 0 #4 February 18, 2015 nzdanI know there's other cases where AAD's have fired while swooping but always thought they were caused by big turns. Has anyone heard of issues with 270's before? What do you consider to be a "big turn"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nzdan 0 #5 February 18, 2015 450's and aboveChildren in the dark cause accidents, accidents in the dark cause children. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomWatson 0 #6 February 18, 2015 Re: "What do you consider to be a "big turn"?" nzdan450's and above Does the dive angle and vertical descent rate dramatically increase between three-quarters of a turn, and a turn and a quarter? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #7 February 24, 2015 I find it hard to believe that the 78 MPH could be generated with your description. Is it possible the setting was changed to Student? Almost every case I've heard of involved pro or swooping mode that was accidentally changed. Student mode is around 45 mph, so I could easily see that. I finally changed my 'expert' cypress to speed after I started doing 450's. I never had a problem with 270's on the expert, but maybe I just suck at swooping. Hope you get this figured out and I'm glad you are OK. That is some scary shit.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 3 #8 February 24, 2015 jacketsdb23I find it hard to believe that the 78 MPH could be generated with your description. Is it possible the setting was changed to Student? Almost every case I've heard of involved pro or swooping mode that was accidentally changed. Student mode is around 45 mph, so I could easily see that. I finally changed my 'expert' cypress to speed after I started doing 450's. I never had a problem with 270's on the expert, but maybe I just suck at swooping. Hope you get this figured out and I'm glad you are OK. That is some scary shit.Quote Hi Marcel. I was beside Ego once when his reserve came out just as he planed out. Luckily he shut it down quickly. I believe he was inadvertently set to Student. Got it all on video.Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 140 #9 February 24, 2015 1-you can not change the settings inadvertently 2-you are supposed to check your gear before each and every jumpscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nzdan 0 #10 February 24, 2015 It was set to pro, the unit still confirmed the pro setting after activation. It will be interesting to see what Vigil comes back with, I'm suspecting a faulty unit as oppose to actually reaching activation speeds with that setup. I'll post the data once received from Vigil.Children in the dark cause accidents, accidents in the dark cause children. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mxk 1 #11 February 24, 2015 I'm guessing you don't have a digital altimeter that records your descent profile? Would be interesting to compare that with what the Vigil recorded. What I'd like to know is whether the burble generated at a lower speed (e.g. 50 mph) would be sufficient to trick the Vigil into reading a faster rate of descent as you transition from a mostly horizontal to a mostly vertical orientation. For example, in freefall at 120 mph Vigil says that the difference in altitude readings between belly-to-earth and upright/back-to-earth orientations is 260 ft. Let's say you take 3 seconds to make that transition, so as far as the Vigil is concerned you're traveling an extra 260 ft in addition to your actual loss of altitude of 528 ft over 3 seconds. Vigil will calculate your average speed as 179 mph during that transition. Something similar may be happening under the canopy if the AADs are firing as you exit the turn. The reason I'm picking 3 seconds as the transition time is that Vigil almost certainly has logic in its software that would filter out an instantaneous speed of 475 mph if the transition happens over 0.5 seconds. However, if the transition takes longer, Vigil can no longer be sure whether the speed increase is real or a result of leaving the burble. [edit] Darn, billvon beat me to this theory by a few years: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4359425#4359425 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianM 1 #12 February 24, 2015 mxkThe reason I'm picking 3 seconds as the transition time is that Vigil almost certainly has logic in its software that would filter out an instantaneous speed of 475 mph if the transition happens over 0.5 seconds. However, if the transition takes longer, Vigil can no longer be sure whether the speed increase is real or a result of leaving the burble. I don't think it's "almost certain" at all. Multiple real-life misfires suggest the Vigil does not have such logic. For example, the two Vigils that misfired in a C206 when the door opened at 400 feet measured a brief pressure spike of less than a second duration that corresponded to about a 5g acceleration (according to the graphs released by AAD). Another one misfired in a Beech 18 when the pilot's window was opened at around 900 feet. Vigils have fired on the ground when the aircraft was pressurized. I recall reports of Vigils firing when car trunks were closed. We have plenty of examples that indicate that Vigils do *not* filter out brief rapid pressure changes. Comments made directly by AAD suggest that a measured speed greater than the firing speed for 5/8 of a second is sufficient to fire, which agrees with the above."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites degeneration 5 #13 February 25, 2015 BrianM I don't think it's "almost certain" at all. Multiple real-life misfires suggest the Vigil does not have such logic. For example, the two Vigils that misfired in a C206 when the door opened at 400 feet measured a brief pressure spike of less than a second duration that corresponded to about a 5g acceleration (according to the graphs released by AAD). Another one misfired in a Beech 18 when the pilot's window was opened at around 900 feet. Vigils have fired on the ground when the aircraft was pressurized. I recall reports of Vigils firing when car trunks were closed. We have plenty of examples that indicate that Vigils do *not* filter out brief rapid pressure changes. Comments made directly by AAD suggest that a measured speed greater than the firing speed for 5/8 of a second is sufficient to fire, which agrees with the above. Did those fires not happen with older Vigils, not Vigil II/2s? Assumptions on logic controls for the Vigil I may not be valid assumptions for the Vigil II.Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianM 1 #14 February 25, 2015 degeneration*** I don't think it's "almost certain" at all. Multiple real-life misfires suggest the Vigil does not have such logic. For example, the two Vigils that misfired in a C206 when the door opened at 400 feet measured a brief pressure spike of less than a second duration that corresponded to about a 5g acceleration (according to the graphs released by AAD). Another one misfired in a Beech 18 when the pilot's window was opened at around 900 feet. Vigils have fired on the ground when the aircraft was pressurized. I recall reports of Vigils firing when car trunks were closed. We have plenty of examples that indicate that Vigils do *not* filter out brief rapid pressure changes. Comments made directly by AAD suggest that a measured speed greater than the firing speed for 5/8 of a second is sufficient to fire, which agrees with the above. Did those fires not happen with older Vigils, not Vigil II/2s? Assumptions on logic controls for the Vigil I may not be valid assumptions for the Vigil II. The two in the C206 door opening incident and the one in the Beech 18 window opening incident were all Vigil II's."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dthames 0 #15 February 25, 2015 I know a guy that had one fire turning to Final in a normal landing pattern. There is a chance that the swoop had nothing to do with it.Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites angryelf 0 #16 April 24, 2015 Any word back from AAD on why your Vigil fired? -Harry"Sometimes you eat the bar, and well-sometimes the bar eats you..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites df8m1 24 #17 April 28, 2015 angryelfAny word back from AAD on why your Vigil fired? -Harry Bueller??..... Bueller??......Bueller??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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piisfish 140 #9 February 24, 2015 1-you can not change the settings inadvertently 2-you are supposed to check your gear before each and every jumpscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nzdan 0 #10 February 24, 2015 It was set to pro, the unit still confirmed the pro setting after activation. It will be interesting to see what Vigil comes back with, I'm suspecting a faulty unit as oppose to actually reaching activation speeds with that setup. I'll post the data once received from Vigil.Children in the dark cause accidents, accidents in the dark cause children. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mxk 1 #11 February 24, 2015 I'm guessing you don't have a digital altimeter that records your descent profile? Would be interesting to compare that with what the Vigil recorded. What I'd like to know is whether the burble generated at a lower speed (e.g. 50 mph) would be sufficient to trick the Vigil into reading a faster rate of descent as you transition from a mostly horizontal to a mostly vertical orientation. For example, in freefall at 120 mph Vigil says that the difference in altitude readings between belly-to-earth and upright/back-to-earth orientations is 260 ft. Let's say you take 3 seconds to make that transition, so as far as the Vigil is concerned you're traveling an extra 260 ft in addition to your actual loss of altitude of 528 ft over 3 seconds. Vigil will calculate your average speed as 179 mph during that transition. Something similar may be happening under the canopy if the AADs are firing as you exit the turn. The reason I'm picking 3 seconds as the transition time is that Vigil almost certainly has logic in its software that would filter out an instantaneous speed of 475 mph if the transition happens over 0.5 seconds. However, if the transition takes longer, Vigil can no longer be sure whether the speed increase is real or a result of leaving the burble. [edit] Darn, billvon beat me to this theory by a few years: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4359425#4359425 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #12 February 24, 2015 mxkThe reason I'm picking 3 seconds as the transition time is that Vigil almost certainly has logic in its software that would filter out an instantaneous speed of 475 mph if the transition happens over 0.5 seconds. However, if the transition takes longer, Vigil can no longer be sure whether the speed increase is real or a result of leaving the burble. I don't think it's "almost certain" at all. Multiple real-life misfires suggest the Vigil does not have such logic. For example, the two Vigils that misfired in a C206 when the door opened at 400 feet measured a brief pressure spike of less than a second duration that corresponded to about a 5g acceleration (according to the graphs released by AAD). Another one misfired in a Beech 18 when the pilot's window was opened at around 900 feet. Vigils have fired on the ground when the aircraft was pressurized. I recall reports of Vigils firing when car trunks were closed. We have plenty of examples that indicate that Vigils do *not* filter out brief rapid pressure changes. Comments made directly by AAD suggest that a measured speed greater than the firing speed for 5/8 of a second is sufficient to fire, which agrees with the above."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
degeneration 5 #13 February 25, 2015 BrianM I don't think it's "almost certain" at all. Multiple real-life misfires suggest the Vigil does not have such logic. For example, the two Vigils that misfired in a C206 when the door opened at 400 feet measured a brief pressure spike of less than a second duration that corresponded to about a 5g acceleration (according to the graphs released by AAD). Another one misfired in a Beech 18 when the pilot's window was opened at around 900 feet. Vigils have fired on the ground when the aircraft was pressurized. I recall reports of Vigils firing when car trunks were closed. We have plenty of examples that indicate that Vigils do *not* filter out brief rapid pressure changes. Comments made directly by AAD suggest that a measured speed greater than the firing speed for 5/8 of a second is sufficient to fire, which agrees with the above. Did those fires not happen with older Vigils, not Vigil II/2s? Assumptions on logic controls for the Vigil I may not be valid assumptions for the Vigil II.Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #14 February 25, 2015 degeneration*** I don't think it's "almost certain" at all. Multiple real-life misfires suggest the Vigil does not have such logic. For example, the two Vigils that misfired in a C206 when the door opened at 400 feet measured a brief pressure spike of less than a second duration that corresponded to about a 5g acceleration (according to the graphs released by AAD). Another one misfired in a Beech 18 when the pilot's window was opened at around 900 feet. Vigils have fired on the ground when the aircraft was pressurized. I recall reports of Vigils firing when car trunks were closed. We have plenty of examples that indicate that Vigils do *not* filter out brief rapid pressure changes. Comments made directly by AAD suggest that a measured speed greater than the firing speed for 5/8 of a second is sufficient to fire, which agrees with the above. Did those fires not happen with older Vigils, not Vigil II/2s? Assumptions on logic controls for the Vigil I may not be valid assumptions for the Vigil II. The two in the C206 door opening incident and the one in the Beech 18 window opening incident were all Vigil II's."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #15 February 25, 2015 I know a guy that had one fire turning to Final in a normal landing pattern. There is a chance that the swoop had nothing to do with it.Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
angryelf 0 #16 April 24, 2015 Any word back from AAD on why your Vigil fired? -Harry"Sometimes you eat the bar, and well-sometimes the bar eats you..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
df8m1 24 #17 April 28, 2015 angryelfAny word back from AAD on why your Vigil fired? -Harry Bueller??..... Bueller??......Bueller??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
